Sojourner Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:17 PM']you might say it is butthat does not make it so, it is moral judgement, nothing more and nothing less, if you find yourself outside that moral judgement than at least you should look back and see why that is so, do you have any reason for your position or do you just want your position to be right. [right][snapback]717135[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yep. What he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 The reasons that are acceptable have been stated a few times... The Church teaches NFP, and it is a requirement in my diocese BEFORE you get married, not after the newlywed period, which is not a predetermined amount of time anyway. According to the first post, NFP should ONLY be used if someone have already been pregnant, and never before. That is not the point of NFP. No where does it say that. If someone believes this, that is fine, but it is not fair to say all who disagree are being immoral. I stated that I disagree because we cannot judge anothers situation, and therefore cannot make a blanket statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:19 PM']The reasons that are acceptable have been stated a few times... The Church teaches NFP, and it is a requirement in my diocese BEFORE you get married, not after the newlywed period, which is not a predetermined amount of time anyway. According to the first post, NFP should ONLY be used if someone have already been pregnant, and never before. That is not the point of NFP. No where does it say that. If someone believes this, that is fine, but it is not fair to say all who disagree are being immoral. I stated that I disagree because we cannot judge anothers situation, and therefore cannot make a blanket statement. [right][snapback]717138[/snapback][/right] [/quote] well then you are a moral relativist and not a Catholic. Catholics can certanly make blanket statements about morality. Edit: I hope you are not only going on the first post, there has been quite a bit of development of the Idea since then Edited September 9, 2005 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:19 PM']The reasons that are acceptable have been stated a few times... The Church teaches NFP, and it is a requirement in my diocese BEFORE you get married, not after the newlywed period, which is not a predetermined amount of time anyway. According to the first post, NFP should ONLY be used if someone have already been pregnant, and never before. That is not the point of NFP. No where does it say that. If someone believes this, that is fine, but it is not fair to say all who disagree are being immoral. I stated that I disagree because we cannot judge anothers situation, and therefore cannot make a blanket statement. [right][snapback]717138[/snapback][/right] [/quote] NO ONE has said (to the best of my knowledge) that you can't practice NFP as a newlywed, given that your situation meets certain grave conditions. The question is about whether or not you can ENTER INTO MARRIAGE knowing that you plan to not have children for a given amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 I am so angry right now that if my laptop were backed up I would throw it out the window after beating on my desk here at work. Then after I jumped out the window after it I would probably curl up in a ball and sob. But since I am at work and have to act like an adult I will excercise some self control and I will refrain from commenting. But you all are ripping my very soul out. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:25 PM']I am so angry right now that if my laptop were backed up I would throw it out the window after beating on my desk here at work. Then after I jumped out the window after it I would probably curl up in a ball and sob. But since I am at work and have to act like an adult I will excercise some self control and I will refrain from commenting. But you all are ripping my very soul out. Thank you. [right][snapback]717144[/snapback][/right] [/quote] do I have soul on my fingures agian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 I am an orthodox Catholic, and I do not believe we can make blanket statements about things that are simply opinion. I am not immoral for not following the opinion of someone who has no authority over me. They must do what is right, and I must do what is right. If there is a disagreement, whatever the Church says is the right choice. The Church says, without any noted exceptions, that NFP can be used to avoid pregnancy in a marriage for financial, medical, etc. reasons...it does NOT specify a time. I respect people's opinions, but not when they say it as a fact when it is not a fact. I acknowledge that my disagreement is also an opinion and not a fact, but until the church tells me otherwise, I am not in error. I am a Catholic...not a moral relativist, and I resent your labeling me as such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Birgitta, do not let this get to you more than it should. If you follow the Church, you are not in error. You have to only answer to God, not to posters on Phatmass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:29 PM']I am an orthodox Catholic, and I do not believe we can make blanket statements about things that are simply opinion. I am not immoral for not following the opinion of someone who has no authority over me. They must do what is right, and I must do what is right. If there is a disagreement, whatever the Church says is the right choice. The Church says, without any noted exceptions, that NFP can be used to avoid pregnancy in a marriage for financial, medical, etc. reasons...it does NOT specify a time. I respect people's opinions, but not when they say it as a fact when it is not a fact. I acknowledge that my disagreement is also an opinion and not a fact, but until the church tells me otherwise, I am not in error. I am a Catholic...not a moral relativist, and I resent your labeling me as such. [right][snapback]717152[/snapback][/right] [/quote] [quote]I am a Catholic...not a moral relativist, and I resent your labeling me as such.[/quote] I resent you making moral relativist arguements and statements like " I stated that I disagree because we cannot judge anothers situation, and therefore cannot make a blanket statement." and claiming to be a Catholic. It makes us look bad. If you are not a moral relativist the don't make statments like that. [quote]Church says, without any noted exceptions, that NFP can be used to avoid pregnancy in a marriage for financial, medical, etc. reasons[/quote] Oh no it most certianly does not say that, it says for "grave reasons"-- look up what the Church uses that term for things like war, execution and the like, what those grave reasons are is YOUR opinion, and I have asked repeatedly to give me a justification for it, yet you don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='Sep 9 2005, 04:25 PM']I am so angry right now that if my laptop were backed up I would throw it out the window after beating on my desk here at work. Then after I jumped out the window after it I would probably curl up in a ball and sob. But since I am at work and have to act like an adult I will excercise some self control and I will refrain from commenting. But you all are ripping my very soul out. Thank you. [right][snapback]717144[/snapback][/right] [/quote] *hugs* Birgitta, don't let this get you so upset. You're following the Church. You, your husband, and your spiritual director know that. That is all that's important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 A spiritual director is not a substitute for understanding morality-- many " spiritual directors" are heretics, that your spiritual diector says it's okay does not make it so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 03:10 PM']Exactly... I made a post about my situation and the next post said that no one should get married if they do not plan on having children immediately. I would say that is a judgement directed towards me. [right][snapback]717129[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That is an incorrect representation of what 'the next post" said. Our point is not that you must have children immediately. That is not necessarily something you can control entirely. No one is saying that you must plan to have children immediately either. Our point is that being ready for marriage = being ready for children. You cannot be actually ready for marriage if you are not also ready for children. They go hand in hand. If there is a reason grave enough to intentionally postpone having children immediately, then that reason would also be grave enough to postpone entering into marriage itself until such a grave reason has been resolved. No one is attempting to make excathedra statements. No one is making sweeping unsubstantiated statements. We are discussing the practical side of theology. If that is offensive, then I would recommend avoiding the discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:38 PM']A spiritual director is not a substitute for understanding morality-- many " spiritual directors" are heretics, that your spiritual diector says it's okay does not make it so. [right][snapback]717162[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Thank you. I've heard people tell me things directly contrary to church teaching that came from their spiritual directors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicole8223 Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Don John, the reasons are not in question....getting married when you are going to practice NFP immediately is in question. The Church states the grave reasons for us. I have done the reading. I'm getting married and taking NFP classes....I know what the Church says. "I resent you making moral relativist arguements and statements like " I stated that I disagree because we cannot judge anothers situation, and therefore cannot make a blanket statement." and claiming to be a Catholic. It makes us look bad. If you are not a moral relativist the don't make statments like that." I never said that. I said that making a blanket statement based on opinion and then applying to someone's life is judgemental. You twisted my words. I am a Catholic....I just have respect for others, despite some people on this board who make rude comments! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birgitta Noel Posted September 9, 2005 Share Posted September 9, 2005 Neither my spiritual director, nor the priest who prepared me for marriage are heritics thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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