NFP for Newlyweds

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:33 AM']Ummm...hi....do you know me?  How DARE you tell me that....funny, all the priests I've talked to (orthodox priests) have had no objection.  Yet, some stranger online thinks they know more and they can tell me I am not ready to get married.

You've hit a chord in me....this is just wrong.  People gotta get over themselves and STOP POINTING FINGERS.
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One needs to realize that there are SATs (self-appointed theologians) on this board who think they know better than orthodox priests, bishops, and popes....

I've been to talks and whenever the question of "when is it acceptable to use NFP?" comes up the answer always comes down to "the church hasn't published a list of reasons", so until it does, it really is improper for the non-hierarchy to make sweeping ex-cathedra statements that newlyweds who practice NFP are engaging in immorality. The church also has [i]not [/i]set a numerical minimum as to the number of children a husband and wife must have, nor has it set a deadline as to when the children must commence. And although I personally question the wisdom and motivations of many who may decide to wait ten years to have a child, I'm not going to pronounce anathemas on people who take a few months to "settle in", so to speak, and although there may be some that need to have the kid right away to cement their marriage, I take issue with blanket implications (like one made by my former Opus Dei cicrle leader) that not having a child right away will lead to marital problems. From what I've heard in all my years - from my years in a HS seminary to all the weddings I've attended to all the talks I've gone to - the main thing the Church cares about is that you are open to having children and that you don't use artifiical contraception. Can NFP be misused? Of course, but [i]every situation is different and I'm not privy to what goes on inside the mind of every Catholic on the face of this earth[/i]. The proper place for handing down decisions on the immorality of individual cases is individual counselling with a priest/bishop coupled with confession, and I would like to think that the issue of children would be discussed prior to engagement. I'm not trying to stifle legitimate discussion and "comparing of notes" as to what may constitue proper and improper uses of NFP for the edification of those who practice it and those who are going to be practice it , but the raising of personal opinions to sweeping ex-cathedra judg(e)ments by some leaves me unsettled.

Besides, if it is immoral to avoid relations during fertile periods, that logically leads to mean that a woman should always be pregnant at every waking moment of the day from wedding night until menopause, and fathers will be shooing doctors/nurses out of the delivery room the second the mother gives birth so that they can start on the next one!!!!! (I know the last example is a little extreme, but you get my point). And then logically one must question any woman marrying after menopause - yet there are widows who remarry (including my late grandmother) - are they engaging in immorality?

When I was a twenty-something, my personal goal was to have the first child within the first two years of marriage. But at this point in my life, I would not practice NFP as a newlywed because I'm not a twenty-something any more and I don't want to be so old when I have a kid that I die on him/her when he/she is 9 years old.

[Nicole8223]

Amen, Norseman!

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:00 PM']But to say from the start, "we're not ready to have kids yet.  When we're ready then we'll stop using NFP," is blatantly contraceptive in mentality.  You should refrain from marriage until you are ready to have kids.
There is a bottom line here, and the bottom line is that NFP can be used as a contraceptive.  No babies on purpose=contraception.
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NFP is a continual thing. We won't "stop using it" because it helps to achieve and avoid pregancy.


popestpiusx, it is not our decision that determines whether or not we will conceive, but it is God's. We can use our natural body functions to do the most prudent thing, but if God wants us to get pregnant, we are not preventing it, and we would welcome a child with open arms.

I leave it in God's hands. As Norseman said, the Church has not made any statement on this, so whatever your opinion is, that's fine. Do not speak it as fact....the Church is the authority...not any of us.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:04 PM']popestpiusx, it is not our decision that determines whether or not we will conceive, but it is God's.  We can use our natural body functions to do the most prudent thing, but if God wants us to get pregnant, we are not preventing it, and we would welcome a child with open arms. 

I leave it in God's hands.  As Norseman said, the Church has not made any statement on this, so whatever your opinion is, that's fine.  Do not speak it as fact....the Church is the authority...not any of us.
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I know you’ve addressed this to PSPX, but this line of reasoning is one of my pet peeves. I hear it all the time from my Protestant friends explaining their use of contraceptives.

It is true that sometimes people get pregnant while they’re using NFP, but the statistics show that if it’s done properly NFP can be as (or more, depending on method) effective at preventing birth as contraceptives. So to say “we are not preventing it” is a fallacy. You may not be taking pills to change the way your body works, or using a barrier method, or a spermicide, or any of the other methods of birth control, but by your actions you are using knowledge about the way your body works to proactively avoid becoming pregnant. Now, whether or not you’re sinning in doing this is a matter to be decided between you and your husband (to be, in your case), your priest, and God, since the church has obviously approved the use of NFP in given circumstances. But you cannot convince me that you’re “not preventing” pregnancy.

The fact that God has not overridden the consequences of your actions really has no bearing one way or the other on the rightness or wrongness of what you’re doing, or not doing. God lets us make bad choices. God isn't in the business of forcing us not to sin. He can give us powerful motivators to avoid sinning, and he'll always provide us a way out in the face of temptation, but he'll allow us to sin, no doubt about it, and he'll allow us to experience the consequences of that sin. So just because God hasn't overridden some choice you've made and caused an outcome opposite of your intention doesn't mean you're on the right path.

[Nicole8223]

Contraception says "We do not want a child and will use artificial means to prevent conception from occurring." NFP says, "God, we don't think it is a proper time for us to conceive, but you are in control and we place our trust in you. We will do what the Church teaches us to do in this situation by practicing NFP."

I don't think that is the same at all.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:07 PM']damnation is eternal, waiting until you have a steady job and can afford things without overmuch difficulty will delay your calling by perhaps 5-10 years.

Look, if you (not you in particular) want to make a go of it and so does she, then go for it.  Nobody is stopping you and a priest will probably be happy you aren't cohabitating.  It will be difficult is all.  Children will make it more so.  It makes good sense to wait longer for marriage.
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5-10 years significantly delays children anyway, to the point that by the time menopause sets in, one could not have nearly as large a family. At least being married allows for children to be born and allows a couple to be open to life. Holding off on marriage because they don't feel they are prepared is 1. a complete distrust of God's working in our lives, and 2. not, in fact, open to life.

As Jeff said, I think the major issue is that waiting like that puts marriage in the position of being solely about childbearing...that's potentially dangerous. I'm still waiting for EWTN to respond to the question I asked before I'll make up my mind finally, but I think it's a valid point that isn't being addressed properly.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:23 AM']I'm getting married next August, and we don't plan on havign children right away.  Not because we aren't open to life, because NFP is open to life, but because we don't think it would be prudent.  We both feel called to marraige and we both consult very orthodox spiritual directors who have given us a green light.

So according to most of you, we're being immoral.  Well, I think you're being a bit judgemental.

NFP is perfect for us.  We of course will have a wonderful honeymoon where we won't even think of NFP, and maybe some time after, but for the first year, we plan on practicing NFP.  NFP is NATURAL, and it is NOT immoral if used correctly, and from all I have read and seen from the Church on the matter, we are going to use it correctly.  If God wants us to have a child in our first year of marraige, then we'll be delighted, but we aren't going to throw caution to the wind when we know it isn't the prudent thing to do.
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Why is it not prudent.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 11:36 AM']Thanks!  This is my point.  NO ONE has the right to say, "You'r reason isn't grave enough so you're being immoral."  It's not our job to do that....if I want someone to do that, I go to my spiritual director and see what he thinks.
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Actually that is big load of carp. I have every right to say your reasons arn't grave enough, if something is immoral I not only have the right but the responsability to say it to the offender--- it is in fact a spiritual work of mercy. Why don't people stop trying to defend there own rightousness and start actually discussing the issue at hand.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:32 PM']Contraception says "We do not want a child and will use artificial means to prevent conception from occurring."  NFP says, "God, we don't think it is a proper time for us to conceive, but you are in control and we place our trust in you.  We will do what the Church teaches us to do in this situation by practicing NFP."

I don't think that is the same at all.
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NFP can be used in a contraceptive way. It doesn't always say, "God, we don't think it is a proper time for us to conceive, but you are in control and we place our trust in you. We will do what the Church teaches us to do in this situation by practicing NFP." Sometimes it does say that, and the possibility of that intent is what distinguishes its use from contraception.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:32 PM']Contraception says "We do not want a child and will use artificial means to prevent conception from occurring."  NFP says, "God, we don't think it is a proper time for us to conceive, but you are in control and we place our trust in you.  We will do what the Church teaches us to do in this situation by practicing NFP."

I don't think that is the same at all.
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This is exactly it.

It can be abused, of course, by couples who want to take a legalistic approach but don't really want children at all. However, those who desire children, but, for serious unselfish reasons, wish to hold them off a bit, while still ultimately entrusting it to God and [b][i]having that attitude[/i][/b] (which is not present in the contraceptive mindset)...well, there's a major difference there.

[Nicole8223]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:40 PM']Actually that is big load of carp. I have every right to say your reasons arn't grave enough, if something is immoral I not only have the right but the responsability to say it to the offender--- it is in fact a spiritual work of mercy. Why don't people stop trying to defend there own rightousness and start actually discussing the issue at hand.
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Yes, but to make a blanket statement that you should not get married if you do not plan on having children immediately is a judgement. No one knows my reasons for not having children immediatly, and I don't need to tell anyone. So, no one can say "That's not good enough", let alone strangers on the internet.

I am discussing the issue at hand....

I believe NFP [i]can be[/i] morally acceptable for newlyweds in some situations.

Sojourner, I agree, NFP can be contraceptive, but I guess I meant that we feel that way....we are leaving it to God while practicing NFP. The Church does not condemn that. What you said is exactly how I feel. Our intent is not to put our agenda before God's. We will pray and do what he calls us to do, through guidance from our spiritual directors. Pray for us that we many never stray from that mindset.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 9 2005, 03:40 PM']NFP can be used in a contraceptive way. It doesn't always say, "God, we don't think it is a proper time for us to conceive, but you are in control and we place our trust in you. We will do what the Church teaches us to do in this situation by practicing NFP." Sometimes it does say that, and the possibility of that intent is what distinguishes its use from contraception.
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So then why is it immoral for a newlywed couple [b]with the right intent[/b] to use NFP?

I don't believe it is immoral if the newlywed couple has valid reasons for it.

(this question isn't directed at you Abby, but in general to those who say NFP for newlyweds is immoral).

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]I've been to talks and whenever the question of "when is it acceptable to use NFP?" comes up the answer always comes down to "the church hasn't published a list of reasons", so until it does, it really is improper for the non-hierarchy to make sweeping ex-cathedra statements that newlyweds who practice NFP are engaging in immorality.[/quote]

I don't believe anyone here did that, but if the discussion of moral theology offends or scandalizes you then you are certianly welcome not to read the thread or participate in the discussion. It is certianly not improper for anyone here to discuss the moral implications of NFP and just for the record all Catholics are members of the Hierarchy, the laity are just lowly members of it.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:45 PM']Yes, but to make a blanket statement that you should not get married if you do not plan on having children immediately is a judgement.  No one knows my reasons for not having children immediatly, and I don't need to tell anyone.  So, no one can say "That's not good enough", let alone strangers on the internet.

I am discussing the issue at hand....

I believe NFP [i]can be[/i] morally acceptable for newlyweds in some situations.

Sojourner, I agree, NFP can be contraceptive, but I guess I meant that  we feel that way....we are leaving it to God while practicing NFP.  The Church does not condemn that.  What you said is exactly how I feel.  Our intent is not to put our agenda before God's.  We will pray and do what he calls us to do, through guidance from our spiritual directors.  Pray for us that we many never stray from that mindset.
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Then argue your point, don'ttell me that because you plan to do it it is okay, give me a reason why it is okay, explain to me how your reason could be "grave" enough to avoid children but not "grave" enough to avoid marriage.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 9 2005, 01:46 PM']So then why is it immoral for a newlywed couple [b]with the right intent[/b] to use NFP?

I don't believe it is immoral if the newlywed couple has valid reasons for it.

(this question isn't directed at you Abby, but in general to those who say NFP for newlyweds is immoral).
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Yet you still can't give any justification for your position, you say you won't play what if games, well then you hould bow out of this discussion because ethics and moral theology are all about " what if's".

[Nicole8223]

I think that any of the reasons that were already mentioned (look back to Carrie's post back a few pages) as acceptable by the church apply to newlyweds. There is nothing that says those reasons are only valid after you are no longer a newlywed. The reasons presented do not convince me.