NFP

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Sep 8 2005, 12:23 PM']Who said that?
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I said it, but my name isn't Zach

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Theoketos' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:02 AM']Don Jon, personal attack or friendly jab, it was uncharitable.
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I don't think it was uncharitable, not when someone is debating the word use.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]He most certainly doesn't understand what I'm saying, or else he'd agree with me. [/quote]


Ah Raphael its times like this, you remind me of me.

[Oik]

I'm not sure I am clear on the debate here.

How exactly is NFP wrong when:

first of all, several methods are/can be employed
and
Secdondly, NFP, when practiced correctly fosters dignity, respect, and understanding betweeb the couple when it comes to sexuality? NFP is inherently Pro-life.

I especially don't understnad the claim that it is and/or can foster a contraceptive mentality.


Ex. Ecological Breastfeeding, when used effectively, surpresses a woman's cycle. If her and her husband share the marital embrace, are you saying that this is fostering a contraceptive mentality?

In the end, it is God's will anyways.

Please explain.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Oik' date='Sep 8 2005, 01:14 PM']I'm not sure I am clear on the debate here.

How exactly is NFP wrong when:

first of all, several methods are/can be employed
and
Secdondly, NFP, when practiced correctly fosters dignity, respect, and understanding betweeb the couple when it comes to sexuality? NFP is inherently Pro-life.

I especially don't understnad the claim that it is and/or can foster a contraceptive mentality.
Ex. Ecological Breastfeeding, when used effectively, surpresses a woman's cycle. If her and her husband share the marital embrace, are you saying that this is fostering a contraceptive mentality?

In the end, it is God's will anyways.

Please explain.
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Using NFP intentionally so that one can have sex while preventing the having of a child is a contrcepive mentality. That breastfeeding suppresses fertility is irrelevant that is not the intent of breastfeeding, it is a side affect, NFP has no such primary goal.

[Don John of Austria]

ButI don't think anyone here is actually saying that it is morally objectionable in and of itself.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Oik' date='Sep 8 2005, 03:14 PM']Ex. Ecological Breastfeeding, when used effectively, surpresses a woman's cycle. If her and her husband share the marital embrace, are you saying that this is fostering a contraceptive mentality?

In the end, it is God's will anyways.

Please explain.
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Those that are saying NFP is wrong are just expressing their own personal opinions. While accepted by the Church, there is no requirement in practicing NFP. As Hsmom said, its great to let the chips fall where they may.

With ecological breastfeeding, the married couple is not keeping track of when the wife is most/least likely to conceive. They are not only sharing the marital embrace during times of decreased fertility. This is definitely not embracing a contraceptive mentality.

With NFP, the couple (who is avoiding conception at that particular time)charts to keep track of fertility and engaging in the marital embrace when the wife is less fertile and abstaining when the wife is more fertile.

When done for valid reasons, NFP is wonderful (and accepted by the Church).

Some people use NFP for the wrong reasons, which can foster a contraceptive mentality. But when used for valid reasons, NFP can be a wonderful method that is accepted by the Church.

[quote]NFP, when practiced correctly fosters dignity, respect, and understanding betweeb the couple when it comes to sexuality? NFP is inherently Pro-life.[/quote]

True!

And just for the record, I support NFP!

[Carrie]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 03:27 PM']Using NFP intentionally so that one can have sex while preventing the having of a child  is a contrcepive mentality. That breastfeeding suppresses fertility is irrelevant that is not the intent of breastfeeding, it is a side affect, NFP has no such primary goal.
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[Sojourner]

I'm going to start at the end of your comments first
[quote name='Oik' date='Sep 8 2005, 01:14 PM']In the end, it is God's will anyways.
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I can't tell you how many times I've heard this argument from people on birth control. "If God wants us to get pregnant, it will happen."

Well, that's true to a certain extent. People do get pregnant despite their best efforts to avoid it. But God also lets us make bad choices. God isn't in the business of forcing us not to sin. He can give us powerful motivators to avoid sinning, and he'll always provide us a way out in the face of temptation, but he'll allow us to sin, no doubt about it, and he'll allow us to experience the consequences of that sin. So just because God hasn't overridden some choice you've made and caused an outcome opposite of your intention doesn't mean you're on the right path.

Now, on to your overarching questions
[quote name='Oik' date='Sep 8 2005, 01:14 PM']I'm not sure I am clear on the debate here.

How exactly is NFP wrong when:

first of all, several methods are/can be employed
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That has no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of NFP. There's several methods of contraception, too, but that doesn't make it an acceptable alternative for a faithful Catholic.

[quote name='Oik' date='Sep 8 2005, 01:14 PM']How exactly is NFP wrong when:

...
Secdondly, NFP, when practiced correctly fosters dignity, respect, and understanding betweeb the couple when it comes to sexuality? NFP is inherently Pro-life.
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The area I personally question with NFP is its use to avoid pregnancy. I think there are indeed a number of benefits to NFP. As a woman, I think it's important for me to understand my body and how it works, and if I were married I'd want my husband to understand that too as a part of his overall understanding of me.

But, as in many other areas, knowledge brings responsibility. All of a sudden, when you know all this stuff about how your body works and when you're more likely to conceive, you have choices to make in regard to how you're going to use this knowledge. Do you use it to avoid conception? If so, then you have to understand WHY you're using it for that purpose, and once you've pinpointed the reason you're using it to avoid conception, you need to discern whether or not that reason is in line with Church teaching in this area.

As we said earlier, it's all about intention.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 01:28 PM']ButI don't think anyone here is actually saying that it is morally objectionable in and of itself.
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I'd say it's morally neutral. I don't think it's inherently pro-life or inherently contraceptive.

[Oik]

I See!

I agree here. I certainly think that NFP could be used with the attempt to avoid pregnancy (which is not in and of itself wrong, if done for morally acceptable reasons).

My uneasiness of the negative speculation about the topic stems from my wariness of the mentality the NFP is morally objectional and that even it's faithful practice leans toward a contraceptive mentality.

It has been made clear, though, that this is not the case in this thread.

As a matter of personal opinion, I honestly think it is highly unlikely that those with noble intentions, faithfulness and obidence to the Church and continued education on these matter will ever fall into the incorrect practice or incorrect useage of NFP.

[Carrie]

I hope Cam doesn't mind, but this is something he posted awhile back in the Q&A section about NFP.

Worth a second read.

[quote]Natural Family Planning is not, I repeat not contraception.

It is responsible conception. What is the purpose of NFP? Achievement of pregnancy by understanding the fertility cycle better and learning when the probability of concieving is highest. Then engaging in the sexual act at that time.

Remember, having sex is not a right, it is a privelege. Even those who are married are called to chasitity. Part of this is continence. There are times within the marriage, in which the sexual act is not appropriate.

NFP, optimizes the sexual action. It does not prevent the sexual union but sacntifies it.

Remember the threefold meaning of the sexual action.

1. Sacramental
2. Unitive
3. Procreative

Does NFP contradict any of these things? No. Does contraception contradict any of these things? Yes.

Can NFP be used inappropriately? Yep. It can be used as contraception, in order to avoid pregnancy. This mindset is not in keeping with Catholic teaching. The Catholic mindset of NFP is as stated above. It is not to avoid pregnancy, but rather to promote, through proper chastity, the conception and birth of a child.[/quote]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Oik' date='Sep 8 2005, 01:40 PM']As a matter of personal opinion, I honestly think it is highly unlikely that those with noble intentions, faithfulness and obidence to the Church and continued education on these matter will ever fall into the incorrect practice or incorrect useage of NFP.
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In my experiance it is quite the opposite, more than that I have found that when NFP leads to contraceptive mentality that it tends to be the beachhead for people to start in general questioning the teaching of the Church on all sorts of matters. I am not saying that this is always so just that it is common enough to warrent concern.

I don't think I would go so far as to say NFP is morally nuetral, I would say it is morally permissable, but is not as meritrious as trusting in Divine Providence

[Oik]

Sojourner

[quote]I can't tell you how many times I've heard this argument from people on birth control. "If God wants us to get pregnant, it will happen.[/quote]

NFP is not artifical birth control, it employs natural means of menstural observation and various natural means (if necessary) of birth regulation and even a natural means (if you are familiar with NaPro technology) of fertility disease treatment.

[quote]That has no bearing on the rightness or wrongness of NFP. There's several methods of contraception, too, but that doesn't make it an acceptable alternative for a faithful Catholic. [/quote]

NFP is not contraception, though contraceptive methods are always (and rightfully so) umbrella'd (bad grammar, I know) under one term.

The Methods of NFP certain do apply if one wants to discuss the inherant moral values of it. I beleive this is clearly evident when one compares Ecological breastfeeding alone with the Sympto-thermal method alone.

[quote]But, as in many other areas, knowledge brings responsibility. All of a sudden, when you know all this stuff about how your body works and when you're more likely to conceive, you have choices to make in regard to how you're going to use this knowledge. Do you use it to avoid conception? If so, then you have to understand WHY you're using it for that purpose, and once you've pinpointed the reason you're using it to avoid conception, you need to discern whether or not that reason is in line with Church teaching in this area.[/quote]

Totally agreed! It is of paramount importance for the one flesh of the marital couple to understand the acts of themselves, from themselves (here of course the plural is used in the singular sense). This knowledge though, fosters in the faithful heart responsibility. If they themsleves misuse the knowledge, that really says nothing of the knowledge itself, it only speaks of the one person act of the couple.


[quote]I'd say it's morally neutral. I don't think it's inherently pro-life or inherently contraceptive.[/quote]

For reasons already stated, I disagree with you.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 8 2005, 03:35 PM']I'd say it's morally neutral. I don't think it's inherently pro-life or inherently contraceptive.
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I don't know that I'd say morally neutral.

I would think issues such as tattoos (let's not expand on the issues of tattoos here) are morally neutral since the Church has no stance.

But the Church clearly supports NFP.