NFP

[homeschoolmom]

dead horse----->

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:39 AM']dead horse----->
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CAGE MATCH!

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:37 AM']People need to improve their grammar.  Regardless of the word "woman," the object of "manipulate" is still "ovulation."  Yet there is no manipulation of the ovulation of the woman going on.  Nor is there management of the ovulation, since it is not being managed, but merely recorded and that record being used for managing sexual patterns.  Therefore, grammar has everything to do with it, and not vocabulary.
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Raphael,
Actually DJ is right here. He's talking about using the knowledge one has about a woman's ovulation (i.e., the data that's been recorded) and "managing it shrewdly" so as to achieve the desired outcome. You are talking about the word "manipulate" in another sense than he is.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:40 AM'] CAGE MATCH!
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I've seen one of those, up close and personal, and it's not pretty.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:42 AM']Raphael,
Actually DJ is right here. He's talking about using the knowledge one has about a woman's ovulation (i.e., the data that's been recorded) and "managing it shrewdly" so as to achieve the desired outcome. You are talking about the word "manipulate" in another sense than he is.
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Yes, but in this case, he's referring to "managing" the data, not the ovulation. That was my point.

I have no disagreement with the definition of the word "manipulate" and every disagreement with the wording which implies that there is a management or alteration being made to ovulation, which there is not, but rather to the sexual pattern as based off of ovulation.

I am not saying that he had intent in this, I'm only saying that it made for bad terminology.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:22 AM']Come on, people, this is supposed to be the debate table. What's with all the agreeing? 
:
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I don't know. End of the world must be near.


:

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:44 AM']Yes, but in this case, he's referring to "managing" the data, not the ovulation.  That was my point.

I have no disagreement with the definition of the word "manipulate" and every disagreement with the wording which implies that there is a management or alteration being made to ovulation, which there is not, but rather to the sexual pattern as based off of ovulation.

I am not saying that he had intent in this, I'm only saying that it made for bad terminology.
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no I am refering to managing the ovulation. It is the actual ovulation that is being managed, the data is rrelevent to the act of getting pregnant only the actual ovulation is cogent to the issue, the Data allows one to effective manage the ovulation, ie. to manipulate it. but it is still the ovlation itself that is being managed.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:48 AM']no I am refering to managing the ovulation. It is the actual ovulation that is being managed, the data is rrelevent to the act of getting pregnant only the actual ovulation is cogent to the issue, the Data allows one to effective manage the ovulation, ie. to manipulate it. but it is still the ovlation itself that is being managed.
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The word manage implies that there is some action of taking control over something. There is no managing of the ovulation involved any more than an an observer manages a control group. The scientist manages the control group...the observer just jots down notes.

[God Conquers]

How can abstention from sexual intercourse within marriage, even for a year or more, be sinful? This doesn't make any sense.

It may be exemplary. It may be difficult. It may even be ill-advised for most couples... but sinful?

Sorry that this is earlier in the debate, but it wasn't addressed then...

Mary is SINLESS. She is also MARRIED. An also a VIRGIN.

Ditto St. Edward the Confessor... married, yet a virgin.

There are other saints and holy people, who, within marriage, never or stopped having sexual intercourse for the sake of the Kingdom.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:52 AM']The word manage implies that there is some action of taking control over something.  There is no managing of the ovulation involved any more than an an observer manages a control group.  The scientist manages the control group...the observer just jots down notes.
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man·age ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mnj)
v. man·aged, man·ag·ing, man·ag·es
v. tr.
[color=red]To direct or control the use of;[/color] handle: manage a complex machine tool.

To exert control over: “Managing the news... is the oldest game in town” (James Reston). “A major crisis to be managed loomed on the horizon” (Time).
To make submissive to one's authority, discipline, or persuasion.
To direct the affairs or interests of: manage a company; an agency that manages performers. See Synonyms at conduct.
To succeed in accomplishing or achieving, especially with difficulty; contrive or arrange: managed to get a promotion.



The very first defintion [color=red]to control the use of[/color], this is controling to use of ovulation, I don't see how that could be more apparant.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:00 AM']How can abstention from sexual intercourse within marriage, even for a year or more, be sinful? This doesn't make any sense.

It may be exemplary. It may be difficult. It may even be ill-advised for most couples... but sinful?

Sorry that this is earlier in the debate, but it wasn't addressed then...

Mary is SINLESS. She is also MARRIED. An also a VIRGIN.

Ditto St. Edward the Confessor... married, yet a virgin.

There are other saints and holy people, who, within marriage, never or stopped having sexual intercourse for the sake of the Kingdom.
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Yeah, I was wondering about that too. St. Paul says you can deprive each other by mutual consent "for a time" -- so what if that time is a year? It could be a time of great spiritual growth for the couple, and sexual intimacy is only one area of intimacy a couple shares. Don't get me wrong -- I think it would be very, very difficult, and like GC said not advisable for most couples. But for the right couple, it could be a very good thing.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:00 AM']man·age    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (mnj)
v. man·aged, man·ag·ing, man·ag·es
v. tr.
[color=red]To direct or control the use of;[/color] handle: manage a complex machine tool.

To exert control over: “Managing the news... is the oldest game in town” (James Reston). “A major crisis to be managed loomed on the horizon” (Time).
To make submissive to one's authority, discipline, or persuasion.
To direct the affairs or interests of: manage a company; an agency that manages performers. See Synonyms at conduct.
To succeed in accomplishing or achieving, especially with difficulty; contrive or arrange: managed to get a promotion.
The very first defintion [color=red]to control the use of[/color], this is controling to use of ovulation, I don't see how that could be more apparant.
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I would call that ambiguous. One could define "use" as a direct use (as we "use" tools) or as a purpose (what we use it for).

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:08 AM']I would call that ambiguous.  One could define "use" as a direct use (as we "use" tools) or as a purpose (what we use it for).
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Raphael, just admit it. DJ was right. You just read his intended meaning incorrectly.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:08 AM']I would call that ambiguous.  One could define "use" as a direct use (as we "use" tools) or as a purpose (what we use it for).
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It matters not because NFP controls the use in both senses both in its actual use and in it's purpose.


by the way your begining to sound like a former president do we need to define "is" also.

Edited September 8, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:10 AM']It matters not because NFP controls the use in both senses both in its actual use and in it's purpose.
by the way your begining to sound like a former president do we need to define "is" also.
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I never said we need to define "is" or anything of the sort. You can stop with the personal attacks. All I'm saying is that your terminology was confusing. Get over it.

NFP does "use" ovulation in the sense of actual use, because it makes use of it, but it does not manage the usage, that is, there is no control exerted over the usage in this sense over the ovulation. Ovulation itself is not affected.