NFP

[Sojourner]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Sep 8 2005, 05:50 AM']I do not like NFP.  I have trouble seeing the point, as well as the moral justification for it.  However, the Churh has said it is ok in certain grave circumstances.  To borrow from another hot debate, I think such circumstances are 'rare, if not practically non-existent'. 

To accuse those who disaprove of NFP of being schismatic is quite rediculous and displays a certain deficiency in one's understanding of the term 'schismatic'.
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I'm still going back and forth as to what I think about NFP, but I'm tending to lean towards your view on this, mainly because of what Zach said ...

[quote]Those that are agianst NFP for birth control find that it is still an attempt to manipulate sex so that one gets the pleasure of sex without truely being open to life, it is a matter of intentionallity. The intent of NFP is often to not have children( it can of course be used to have children) and Traditionalist Catholics often oppose it on the grounds that it defies the meaning of sex and Divine Providence. [/quote]

I know not all couples who use NFP use it out of bad intentions, and quite honestly who am I to judge the intents of any couple's hearts? But so often people talk about NFP the same way they talk about birth control, and that bothers me. It just doesn't sit well with me. I like NFP much better than contraception, but when I think about it from a theological standpoint I just have trouble seeing that there's proper justification for it in the way lots of people use it.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Don John does not know how to manipulate ovulation - a typo/miscommunication - hey we are just typing here.[/quote]


But I didn't say MANIPULATING OVULATION!!!

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:01 AM']He's trying the best he can to post while he's busy doing other things.  [right][snapback]715379[/snapback][/right]
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Aw... I know. I wasn't trying to be critical (okay, maybe a little)... I know Don John's not phishy...

[Carrie]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:03 AM']I like NFP much better than contraception, but when I think about it from a theological standpoint I just have trouble seeing that there's proper justification for it in the way lots of people use it.
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It's all about the intention of the couple and whether or not the reason they desire to use NFP is a valid one.

The easiest way for them to figure that out is to speak to a priest.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:10 AM']It's all about the intention of the couple and whether or not the reason they desire to use NFP is a valid one.

The easiest way for them to figure that out is to speak to a priest.
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agreed

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:08 AM']But I didn't say MANIPULATING OVULATION!!!
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[quote]you don't have to manipulate the ovulation of the women[/quote]

Sounds like it to me.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:10 AM']It's all about the intention of the couple and whether or not the reason they desire to use NFP is a valid one.

The easiest way for them to figure that out is to speak to a priest.
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Yeah, I'd agree with that statement. It is all about the intention, and I guess the intentions I often hear expressed seem to be more in line with a birth control mentality than with a marriage that's open to life.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:11 AM']Sounds like it to me.
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Alright I have already explained it but I will explain it agian. I said "manipulate the ovulation of the women" And you are indeed manipulating the womens ovulation, That doesn't mean that you are changing the time of ovulation but that you are using the time of that ovulation for your own purposes which are contrary to the intention of ovulation.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:16 AM'] It is all about the intention, and I guess the intentions I often hear expressed seem to be more in line with a birth control mentality than with a marriage that's open to life.
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I would agree with that as well.

[Carrie]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 11:10 AM']agreed
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We agree!

What's that? Twice this year?


We're getting along! :

[homeschoolmom]

[Sojourner]

Come on, people, this is supposed to be the debate table. What's with all the agreeing?


:

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:16 AM']Alright I have already explained it but I will explain it agian.  I said "manipulate the ovulation of the women"  And you are indeed manipulating the womens ovulation, That doesn't mean that you are changing the time of ovulation but that you are using the time of that ovulation for your own purposes which are contrary to the intention of ovulation.
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...and as I explained, that would be "misuse" of ovulation (if it were wrong), not "manipulation." I see your intent, but it's still bad terminology.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 8 2005, 09:27 AM']...and as I explained, that would be "misuse" of ovulation (if it were wrong), not "manipulation."  I see your intent, but it's still bad terminology.
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well we disagree there I suppose, if I had said that one was manipulating ovulation, I would agree, but I didn't I said one was manipulating the womens ovulation, which is not the same thing.
People really need to improve there vocabulary, most words have more than one meaning.

to manipulate: ma·nip·u·late ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-npy-lt)
tr.v. ma·nip·u·lat·ed, ma·nip·u·lat·ing, ma·nip·u·lates
To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: She manipulated the lights to get just the effect she wanted.
To influence or [color=red]manage shrewdly or deviously[/color]: He manipulated public opinion in his favor.
To tamper with or falsify for personal gain: tried to manipulate stock prices.
Medicine. To handle and move in an examination or for therapeutic purposes: manipulate a joint; manipulate the position of a fetus during delivery.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:32 AM']well we disagree there I suppose, if I had said that one was manipulating ovulation, I would agree, but I didn't  I said one was manipulating the womens ovulation, which is not the same thing. 
People really need to improve there vocabulary, most words have more than one meaning.

to manipulate:    ma·nip·u·late    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (m-npy-lt)
tr.v. ma·nip·u·lat·ed, ma·nip·u·lat·ing, ma·nip·u·lates
To move, arrange, operate, or control by the hands or by mechanical means, especially in a skillful manner: She manipulated the lights to get just the effect she wanted.
To influence or [color=red]manage shrewdly or deviously[/color]: He manipulated public opinion in his favor.
To tamper with or falsify for personal gain: tried to manipulate stock prices.
Medicine. To handle and move in an examination or for therapeutic purposes: manipulate a joint; manipulate the position of a fetus during delivery.
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People need to improve their grammar. Regardless of the word "woman," the object of "manipulate" is still "ovulation." Yet there is no manipulation of the ovulation of the woman going on. Nor is there management of the ovulation, since it is not being managed, but merely recorded and that record being used for managing sexual patterns. Therefore, grammar has everything to do with it, and not vocabulary.