LittleLes Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 The fourth century was a productive time for the development of various Catholic dogmas. This may be related to Christianity having become the state religion around this time. The Perpetual Vrginity of Mary, the Trinity, and Original Sin were three of the biggest. Perhaps we can examine the evolution of the teaching on Original Sin. This was primarily, but not entirely, developed by St. Augustine (354-430 A.D.) Of course, since the creation account in Genesis is not considered to be literal history by an increaing number of people, the Original Sin teaching has had to undergo some modification. LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 How else do you explain the reason you don't wanna get up in the morning? We all know it's true. No use trying to convince ourselves that there is no original sin. Common sense should be the default. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote]Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me. --Psalm 51:5[/quote] [quote]In woman was sin's beginning, and because of her we all die. --Sirach 25:23[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 While the science behind the creation account might not be part of the literary scheme of Genisis, the fact that Adam and Eve sinned for the first time is literally true. You can find that interpritation in every authentic Father. I doubt that very many doubt that humans sin. Coincidently, (speaking mainly to Pelagius and Nestorius) they doubted the meaning of original sin, and thus misuderstood God and Man's relationship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Sep 7 2005, 02:53 PM']While the science behind the creation account might not be part of the literary scheme of Genisis, the fact that Adam and Eve sinned for the first time is literally true. You can find that interpritation in every authentic Father. I doubt that very many doubt that humans sin. Coincidently, (speaking mainly to Pelagius and Nestorius) they doubted the meaning of original sin, and thus misuderstood God and Man's relationship. [right][snapback]714578[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: Were the "authentic" Fathers witnesses to the event? Or did they merely all interpret a fictional account in a similar manner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 7 2005, 02:43 PM']How else do you explain the reason you don't wanna get up in the morning? We all know it's true. No use trying to convince ourselves that there is no original sin. Common sense should be the default. [right][snapback]714562[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: (1) Sound like a low cortisol level problem. (2) I don't. So you are now starting with "all" minus 1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 7 2005, 04:40 PM']RESPONSE: (1) Sound like a low cortisol level problem. (2) I don't. So you are now starting with "all" minus 1. [right][snapback]714614[/snapback][/right] [/quote] 1. 2. While you may argue that you don't know it, it is written into your perception of the world. There really is no way around that. However, I will leave the formal debate to the masters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 7 2005, 03:55 PM']1. 2. While you may argue that you don't know it, it is written into your perception of the world. There really is no way around that. However, I will leave the formal debate to the masters. [right][snapback]714631[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE. How do you know what my perception of the world is? Oh I get it. It's one of those: "Everybody knows.....," "It's a proven fact".. "I can't help but believe..." things. : On the other hand, some prefer evidence and analysis of the facts. It's the old fashioned way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 7 2005, 05:12 PM']RESPONSE. How do you know what my perception of the world is? Oh I get it. It's one of those: "Everybody knows.....," "It's a proven fact".. "I can't help but believe..." things. : On the other hand, some prefer evidence and analysis of the facts. It's the old fashioned way! [right][snapback]714652[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Well, actually, since we had infused knowledge before the fall, common sense really is the old-fashioned way. However, I simply prefer to yield to common sense when I see no point in debating. Finally, it's obvious that an individual's perception of the world needn't be the reality of the world. Your perception of the world has little to do with the truth that is stamped on your soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 7 2005, 03:38 PM']RESPONSE: Were the "authentic" Fathers witnesses to the event? Or did they merely all interpret a fictional account in a similar manner? [right][snapback]714612[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You have said that they were not (at least implicitly with ). How do you know it was fictional? All that is literary is not fictional. Further to have faith in Christ means to believe in the theology of the begining which he refers to many times. (Part of this assent would be to the theological fact of original sin and God actually being creator of the heavens and earth instead of the heavens and earth being fellow gods). Though I can see you being possiably an Atheist, at which point it does not matter whether the Bible is accurate to any degree. Also if it is accurate to any degree than I would say the story of the first sin is accurate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 7 2005, 05:12 PM']On the other hand, some prefer evidence and analysis of the facts. It's the old fashioned way! [right][snapback]714652[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If that isn't irony, I don't know what is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Sep 7 2005, 05:24 PM']Though I can see you being possiably an Atheist, at which point it does not matter whether the Bible is accurate to any degree. Also if it is accurate to any degree than I would say the story of the first sin is accurate. [right][snapback]714665[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You're wrong, by his definition (and wild imagination), he's a Catholic. But he can't claim that, because Catholic vs Catholic debate is a major "no no" on Phatmass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 7 2005, 04:24 PM']Well, actually, since we had infused knowledge before the fall, common sense really is the old-fashioned way. However, I simply prefer to yield to common sense when I see no point in debating. Finally, it's obvious that an individual's perception of the world needn't be the reality of the world. Your perception of the world has little to do with the truth that is stamped on your soul. [right][snapback]714663[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: (1) Whoa! Aren't you just assuming that there was "infused knowledge" before a "fall? If we evolved, we developed up from the bottom, not down from the top. (2) Common sense really isn't that common after all. It's usually the reasen given by people wanting to believe what they really want to believe in spite of any evidence. (3) What "truth" is "stamped" on my soul? Evidence please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted September 7, 2005 Author Share Posted September 7, 2005 [quote name='Theoketos' date='Sep 7 2005, 04:24 PM']You have said that they were not (at least implicitly with ). How do you know it was fictional? All that is literary is not fictional. Further to have faith in Christ means to believe in the theology of the begining which he refers to many times. (Part of this assent would be to the theological fact of original sin and God actually being creator of the heavens and earth instead of the heavens and earth being fellow gods). Though I can see you being possiably an Atheist, at which point it does not matter whether the Bible is accurate to any degree. Also if it is accurate to any degree than I would say the story of the first sin is accurate. [right][snapback]714665[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: (1) No. the writers of the Gospels make references (sometimes erroneously) to the Old Testament .They sometimes attribute these to Jesus. And Jesus might well refer to the legends of his day, such as Jonah being swallowed by a whale. But none of this confirms the historicity of the Creation story. And doesn't Christ (and Paul) refer to end times being imminent? But we're still here! (2) No I'm not an atheist. Nor am I very gullible! The story of the first sin is just that, a story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeDee Posted September 7, 2005 Share Posted September 7, 2005 Yikes, that's some scary stuff! Well, if ya wanta be literal. . . Adam could have said "No!" [quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 7 2005, 12:52 PM'] [right][snapback]714577[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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