Men who act like women, Women, who act like men.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Sep 5 2005, 12:39 AM']I like the good ole days when men wore the tattoos and women wore the earrings....
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[FlyLikeABird]

As a woman who is occasionally refered to as a "tomboy", though I seem to be growing out of it now, I think some of our behaviours are simply learned from our upbringing. I, for instance, grew up as one girl amongst a bevy of boy cousins, my best friend in grades 1, 2 and 3 was a boy (he moved away in grade 4) and I was Daddy's girl in terms of trying to be like him.

But I do not nor ever have tried to "act" like a man. I behave in a masculine fashion occasionally because I have not been taught otherwise.

[track2004]

I just want to mention, because I think it's a sterotype that is misleading, not all 'masculine' girls or 'feminine' boys are homosexual. Yes, there are some, but the assumption that all gay kids act like the opposite sex or that any kid who acts like the opposite sex is gay are both false assumptions.

And I do agree with Fly, my best friends have been boys my whole life. Actually my friend David and I discussed this over the summer. We decided, because we grew up in mixed company, we didn't participate in some typical girl or boy activities. Neither of us ever really walked down the street talking about potential significant others. Neither of us discussed much of the awkward girly or boy-y (?) puberty things. We kind of didn't do many things that my girlfriends or his guyfriends did because we were together. So now we're closer to the middle than masculine or feminine.

[FlyLikeABird]

It would be "boy-ish" track and thank you. I would like to add to my statement that I am heterosexual. Not that it should matter really but just to dispel possible rumours.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='track2004' date='Sep 4 2005, 11:33 PM']So are you (WK) just saying women ought to stay at home and take care of the family else they are acting against God?  Or that men must be the main bread winner?  Is wearing pants to masculine, and if so when did it become so because men wore tunics in Jesus time?  This idea of masculine and feminine is so subjective.  I, a girl, want to be a psychologist.  This will probably mean working 40+ hours a week and quite possibly earning more than my husband.  The difference between gender and characteristics is immense.  Nothing says women have to be feminine and men have to be masculine, they are just social constructions of what it means to be a certain gender.
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Masculine and feminine are NOT just social constructs, but inate characteristics in each of us. Nurture has a lot to do with which ones will be manifested in each of us.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Sep 5 2005, 09:41 AM']Masculine and feminine are NOT just social constructs, but inate characteristics in each of us. Nurture has a lot to do with which ones will be manifested in each of us.
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I'm working on something regarding this as we speak. I'll post a link to it later.

[Semalsia]

So what actually is the problem? If a woman is masculine, then so what? What are the bad consequenses of this? I don't think that playing with dolls (excluding action figures, I assume) or a different manner of speaking for a guy are sins, so what exactly is someone doing wrong when they don't follow the gender roles?

[quote name='Socrates']submissive to her man[/quote]

Why am I not surprised ...

[quote name='track2004']I just want to mention, because I think it's a sterotype that is misleading, not all 'masculine' girls or 'feminine' boys are homosexual. Yes, there are some, but the assumption that all gay kids act like the opposite sex or that any kid who acts like the opposite sex is gay are both false assumptions.[/quote]

Exactly. I was going to point out the same thing.

[quote name='cmotherofpirl']Masculine and feminine are NOT just social constructs, but inate characteristics in each of us. Nurture has a lot to do with which ones will be manifested in each of us.[/quote]

If they were innate, then nurture shouldn't have anything to do with them.

People follow them, because they have been told from childhood that they should follow them. Nurture is a way reinforce the social construct.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[Laudate_Dominum]

Well, I've decided to post one tiny snippet of the massive, relentless pile of data that I've been gathering and structuring. This is just a tiny teaser of what is in the works. I'm tackling the issue from every conceivable angle and hope to arrive at some solid conclusions.

Androgens, produced by the testes in males and the adrenal cortex in both sexes, appear to have a profound organizational effect on early neural development. Female rats exposed neonatally to androgens will mount other rats, which is a typical male mating behavior. Likewise, male rats deprived of androgen from an early age will exhibit lordosis (the famale rat mating posture), which is a typical female mating behavior.
[i]Facts from: "Biological Bases of Behavior, Psychosexual Differentiation" and "A Role for Ovarian Hormones in Sexual Differentiation of the Brain"[/i]

This is one of hundreds of pieces of experimental data that I've compiled that indicate the role of innate biology (neuroanatomy, prenatal and pubertal hormones, etc) in the development of masculine and feminine behaviour patterns and traits.

I hope to finish soon.

God bless.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Sep 4 2005, 10:24 PM']Hey Kristina!

how have you been. i came back a month ago maybe. i haven't seen you around the phorum. I would PM but now that I am a phishy (i shouldn't be) i can't PM you.

God Bless,

sam
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Hi Sam,

I dont go on phorums much, but I might go on the debate table more...ya I tried PMing you.

I know I'm deprived, but, whats phisy?

Kristina

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Laudate_Domium']Androgens, produced by the testes in males and the adrenal cortex in both sexes, appear to have a profound organizational effect on early neural development. Female rats exposed neonatally to androgens will mount other rats, which is a typical male mating behavior. Likewise, male rats deprived of androgen from an early age will exhibit lordosis (the famale rat mating posture), which is a typical female mating behavior.[/quote]

If you were to apply that to homosexuality, you might have a point. However, you can't really do the same with personality, since there is no basic personality from which to deviate from. People are a good mix of just about everything.

Edited September 5, 2005 by Semalsia

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Sep 5 2005, 10:33 AM'][quote name='Laudate_Domium']Androgens, produced by the testes in males and the adrenal cortex in both sexes, appear to have a profound organizational effect on early neural development. Female rats exposed neonatally to androgens will mount other rats, which is a typical male mating behavior. Likewise, male rats deprived of androgen from an early age will exhibit lordosis (the famale rat mating posture), which is a typical female mating behavior.[/quote]

If you were to apply that to homosexuality, you might have a point. However, you can't really do the same with personality, since there is no basic personality from which to deviate from. People are a good mix of just about everything.
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You'll see what I'm getting at when I finish the whole thing. It's going to be too big to post so I'll just post a link or something.

I'm excited about it.

[Ora et Labora]

I don't think rat hormone experiments will apply 100% to humans. The fact that we are born with soul and natural law will always place us out of being 100% the same as beings without souls.

Also, we must remember our duty to seek our state in life according to God's Divine Will. We are meant to transcend base animal behavior. We are meant to grow closer to God according to our state in life.

Women, will have free will to choose being a wife, single, or religious. Men have the same options. Married. single, or religious. To step outside of this reality, one will run into so many crippling obstacles that leads away from true happiness.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Sep 5 2005, 10:57 AM'].
People follow them, because they have been told from childhood that they should follow them. Nurture is a way reinforce the social construct.
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Nurturing sets the cultural limits of the innate behavior.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Ora et Labora' date='Sep 5 2005, 11:29 AM']I don't think rat hormone experiments will apply 100% to humans. The fact that we are born with soul and natural law will always place us out of being 100% the same as beings without souls.

Also, we must remember our duty to seek our state in life according to God's Divine Will. We are meant to transcend base animal behavior. We are meant to grow closer to God according to our state in life.

Women, will have free will to choose being a wife, single, or religious. Men have the same options. Married. single, or religious. To step outside of this reality, one will run into so many crippling obstacles that leads away from true happiness.
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Yes, that goes without saying. But the point is the Church teaches that marriage was instituted by God and that it has a specific structure, and that this is imprinted in our very nature (not just our culture or sociology). Therefore the most basic biological constitution of man is essential in grasping the meaning of masculinity and femininity.

Just as you can't reduce man to mere biology, you can't reduce him to mere environmental conditioning, nor can you reduce him to pure spirit.