"eternal matter"

[Fides_et_Ratio]

So, it might not be St. Thomas (it could be St. Bonaventure)... but one saint had a theory about matter being "eternal" with the precondition that God (/unmoved mover/thought thinking thought) always/eternally thinking of matter.

In my Liberal Studies class (which the prof has apparently taken to mean "liberal" views....) the prof was putting down Aquinas. I still don't understand how anyone can do that. Ragging on him for being Christian, and then complaining that no one questions enough of everything (i.e., we shouldn't be accepting St. Thomas' answers in the Summa). We're reading Peter Kreeft's " A Shorter Summa".

Today, we were discussing Thomas' proofs for God's existence and whether His existence was self-evident and got into St. Thomas' criticism of St. Anselm's ontological argument. Being the only one in the class even remotely familiar with St. Anselm, the discussion evolved into a disagreement between me and the prof on Thomas' points in the Summa (of which I had to remind the prof that Thomas wrote the Summa for theology students--for Christians, not as "proof" for atheists or what have you).

Anyhow, long story short, his "point" is that not even Christians can explain "the beginning" we just "posit God to cover what we don't understand". And so I was moving into Aristotle's theory of God as the "unmoved mover" and "thought thinking thought eternally thinking Himself" and that keeps the world in existence...which effectively shut him up pretty good and we "moved on for the day" but he kept muttering something about Christians just making God an excuse for "where did matter come from" etc. and I mentioned the theory and said I wasn't all that familiar with it--and new at least Aristotle speaks of it, but was pretty sure either St. Thomas or St. Bonaventure had an argument for matter's "eternal" existence (under the precondition of God eternally positing it's existence through Himself, etc.) but couldn't explain it well enough because I couldn't remember who said it, where it came from, nor what it entailed. He said he'd ask me about it again during class Wednesday...

Am I way off base and totally misplacing those darn Greek pagan philosophers? Or is there a theory by a Saint offering the existence of matter through God??

I know ultimately the prof's problem resides in his view of God (which I said, and he took offense to....), but I want to "pull an Aquinas" so to speak, and reasonably defend/explain his concerns with Christian interpretation.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

anyone?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

So in other words, you escaped the charismatics, but you still want the orthodoxy in the classroom?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Sep 3 2005, 01:56 PM']So in other words, you escaped the charismatics, but you still want the orthodoxy in the classroom?
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:

except I didn't escape them. my theology class is filled with "st. paul's outreach" kids and the nun that teaches it makes us sing a praise and worship song before every class. I really need a wall for my head...


anyhow, I wasn't expecting this class to necessarily be "catholic", but they weren't going to let me skip the first level with transfer credit because I needed to be reading the books from the "Catholic tradition" and so had to argue that I was transferring from a Catholic school and he made such a big deal about it that I'm surprised they're letting this prof teach the class--he's a part time prof who teaches most of his classes at OSU (Ohio State) and complains that we don't question authority enough... so I was taking him up on his offer.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Sep 3 2005, 02:10 PM']:

except I didn't escape them. my theology class is filled with "st. paul's outreach" kids and the nun that teaches it makes us sing a praise and worship song before every class.   I really need a wall for my head...
anyhow, I wasn't expecting this class to necessarily be "catholic", but they weren't going to let me skip the first level with transfer credit because I needed to be reading the books from the "Catholic tradition" and so had to argue that I was transferring from a Catholic school and he made such a big deal about it that I'm surprised they're letting this prof teach the class--he's a part time prof who teaches most of his classes at OSU (Ohio State) and complains that we don't question authority enough... so I was taking him up on his offer.
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Wow, they wouldn't accept FUS transfer credit because it wasn't from "Catholic tradition"?

How dumb is that...

[Fides_et_Ratio]

no, they eventually accepted my transfer credit (he didn't look where I was transferring from). it was a class where there was supposed to be no transfer credits, period. but I REALLY didn't want to take it, so I argued my way out of it, compromised, and am only taking the second half this semester.

[Cure of Ars]

It looks to me like Thomas did not hold this view. If you look on page 95 in the Shorter Summa it talks about "That the World began?" is an articale of faith according to St. Thomas.


[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104602.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/104602.htm[/url]


This link might help you out.

[url="http://radicalacademy.com/adiphilwonderofmatter1.htm"]http://radicalacademy.com/adiphilwonderofmatter1.htm[/url]

It talks about St. Bonaventure along with St Thomas's understanding of matter.

This also might help;

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10053b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10053b.htm[/url]


I would ask you professor if he skeptical of his skepticism?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Maybe you're thinking of "spiritual matter" ([i]materia spiritualis[/i])? This is different than eternal matter. Thomas and Bonaventure both reject the Aristotelian notion that matter is eternal.

I actually accept the concept of spiritual matter which means I am automatically on the Dominican's black list.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Oh, and it is commonly held (as it was by Aquinas) that you cannot definitively prove that matter is not eternal (you almost have to take it on faith). But I disagree. Perhaps given science and philosophy in his time that was the case, but I read an article several years ago that seemed to do just that. I was unable to find any holes in the arguments and I also failed to find anything that even began to refute the arguments.

Oh, I wish I could find it...

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote]but one saint had a theory about matter being "eternal" with the precondition that God (/unmoved mover/thought thinking thought) always/eternally thinking of matter.[/quote]
I doubt it. Such a theory would make matter co-eternal with God and deny the doctrine of creation which indicates that matter is a part of God's creative act in time. I've never heard of a saint holding to a cosmology of this sort which would ultimately be monist or pantheistic.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

I suppose.

Maybe I was just mixing up Aristotle's cosmology... or maybe it was just another philosopher completely outside of Catholicism. lol. Oh well. I shall try to explain myself tomorrow, I guess.

[phatcatholic]

what is "spiritual matter"?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Sep 6 2005, 01:19 PM']what is "spiritual matter"?
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It is not matter in the sense of something empirical or corporeal, rather it is the result of my acceptance of universal hylomorphism which necessitates positing that even in the spiritual realm there is something which receives form, or "a potency for entity".
The metaphysics of Aquinas essentially does away with spiritual matter, but it exists in the Augustinian tradition and I have my own version of it.

I also hold to the multiplicity of forms and have a more dynamic view of form and matter in general. I take as my starting point the idea of rationes seminales. It is all pretty much a work in progress, but I think it makes better sense in light of certain things (modern science things). It's all highly debatable though, and I'm sure a lot of people would rip on me.. A lot of my philosophical positions are ridiculed so I'm used to it.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Sep 9 2005, 03:45 AM']It is not matter in the sense of something empirical or corporeal, rather it is the result of my acceptance of universal hylomorphism which necessitates positing that even in the spiritual realm there is something which receives form, or "a potency for entity".
The metaphysics of Aquinas essentially does away with spiritual matter, but it exists in the Augustinian tradition and I have my own version of it.

I also hold to the multiplicity of forms and have a more dynamic view of form and matter in general. I take as my starting point the idea of rationes seminales. It is all pretty much a work in progress, but I think it makes better sense in light of certain things (modern science things). It's all highly debatable though, and I'm sure a lot of people would rip on me..  A lot of my philosophical positions are ridiculed so I'm used to it.
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uhhh...............yea.............i didn't understand a word u just said. makes me think i'm not cut out to be Church Scholar afterall.......

Edited September 9, 2005 by phatcatholic

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Sep 9 2005, 05:17 AM']uhhh...............yea.............i didn't understand a word u just said. makes me think i'm not cut out to be Church Scholar afterall.......
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Nah, people hardly ever ask questions that have to do with this kind of stuff. You're certainly cut out for it. Perhaps more than I since you're probably better at explaining things in an intelligible way.