God's Judgement and Pagan Nations

[son_of_angels]

How then can you say that Katrina did not come because of sin? and how can you deny that the purpose in suffering is other than a means to cause repentence, contrition, and reparation?

The fact that you cannot always distinguish between passive and active will, as neither can any mortal being, for that would be to map out the mind of God, means that we must simply adopt the simple position that, as all things proceed from Divine Will, no act of destruction may be denied its place within the mystery of the cross. This applies both to things that seem to come from God's wrath, and others that seem to proceed from God's consent.

[Jaime]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 10 2005, 01:44 PM']How then can you say that Katrina did not come because of sin? and how can you deny that the purpose in suffering is other than a means to cause repentence, contrition, and reparation? 


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That is EXACTLY my point. Yes our suffering comes from sin. NOT FROM GOD!!

And please, since DJ isn't able to, show me where in scripture does a chastisement from God allow for the wicked to buy themselves a pass if they have enough money?

[quote]he fact that you cannot always distinguish between passive and active will, as neither can any mortal being, for that would be to map out the mind of God, means that we must simply adopt the simple position that, as all things proceed from Divine Will, no act of destruction may be denied its place within the mystery of the cross. This applies both to things that seem to come from God's wrath, and others that seem to proceed from God's consent.[/quote]

So are you willing to say that a five year old dying of cancer is a chastisement from God? Because you've just opened that door.

Edited September 10, 2005 by jaime

[son_of_angels]

A chastisement in the sense that it is a time for contrition, compunction, and preparation for death? yes I most certainly am.

[Jaime]

sigh

From newadvent

[quote] It is clear, of course, that the judgment, as it is in God, cannot be a process of distinct and successive acts; it is a single eternal act identical with the Divine Essence. But the effects of the judgment, since they take place in creatures, follow the sequence of time. The Divine judgment is manifested and fulfilled at the beginning, during the progress, and at the end of time. In the beginning, God pronounced judgment upon the whole race, as a consequence of the fall of its representatives, the first parents (Gen., iii). Death and the infirmities and miseries of this were the consequences of that original sentence. Besides this common judgment there have been special judgments on particular individuals and peoples. Such great catastrophes as the flood (Gen., vi, 5), the destruction of Sodom (Gen., xxviii, 20), the earthquake that swallowed up Core and his followers (Num., xvi, 30), the plagues of Egypt (Ex., vi, 6; xii, 12), and the evil that came upon other oppressors of Israel (Ezech., xxv, 11; xxviii, 22) are represented in the Bible as Divine judgments. [b]The fear of God is such a fundamental idea in the Old Testament that it insists mainly on the punitive aspect of the judgment (cf. Prov., xi, 31; Ezechiel, xiv, 21). An erroneous view of these truths led many of the rabbis to teach that all the evil which befalls man is a special chastisement from on high, a doctrine which was declared false by Christ.[/b] emphasis mine[/quote]

While I'm not in the habit of quoting such a general source as New Advent, it will suffice for this conversation. Considering that no one else has offered any sources to back up their opinions, this will actually do just fine.

And I will offer the challenge for the third time. Show me in scripture where anyone was able to escape the chastisement of God because they had enough cash and I will say you are correct.

[Jaime]

bump for a response

[Kilroy the Ninja]

just so there's no confusion... DJ wasn't (and isn't) anywhere near a computer yesterday or today.

[Jaime]

The bump was for either of them

[son_of_angels]

I respond that, indeed, every thing which befalls a person or city or whatever is not a "special" punishment for God, nor a statement, necessarily, of God's particular wrath. But it is a time for meditation on God's wrath, and for contrition.

To say it comes as a result of sin, and the continual wrath of God, is not opposed to the concept that indeed every suffering is not a specially designated punishment from God.

If God made a judgment from the beginning at the fall, he is still making it, and will make it in the future, for God's judgments exist outside of time. Thus, even if there was an "active will" and a "passive will" you couldn't tell the difference because God works outside the scope of time and space.

[God's Errand Girl]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 6 2005, 04:42 PM']300 years ago people would be trying to figure out what they did to so seriously tic God off--- now we cry that he would never do such a thing. And so we do not Change--- the Pagans of Niniva where wiser than us.
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Definitely a point to seriously ponder...

[Don John of Austria]

Jamie I have indeed found what I was looking for ( and it is partially quoted in you above post. but this post will take a bit and I have a friend who is having a crisis, so I have to go, I'll try to post on this tonight.

[Jaime]

I understand. Take care of your friend and what's important!!

[Norseman82]

With the exception of the view that suffering results from God withdrawing His protection from us, please keep in mind the following:

[quote]As He walked along, He saw a man who had been blind from birth.  His disciples asked Him, "Rabbi, was it his sin or that of his parents that caused him to be born blind?"

"Neither," answered Jesus:  "It was no sin, either of this man or of His parents.  Rather, it was to let God's works show forth in him."

[b]John 9:1-3[/b][/quote]

[Jaime]

doo doo doo doo doodley doo

[Don John of Austria]

Haven't forgotten planed to write it tonight.

Edited September 18, 2005 by Don John of Austria

[angels111]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 6 2005, 06:23 PM']No, *we* know no such thing.

If you have received a special revelation of God telling you his business, do what you see fit with that knowledge.

As is my right, I reject your private revelation, tooth and nail. I am content to preach Christ crucified, and not worry about peering into secrets of Divine Providence.
God's will is classified according to his active and permissive will because, frankly, it doesn't matter. The point is not why something happened. The point is what are we going to do now that it has? Are we going to sit around and do useless speculating, or are we going to help those in need and move forward in faith.

His permissive will allows all things. That doesn't mean they are allowed as a chastisement. When a priest rapes a little boy, God isn't chastising that little boy. He has allowed it, but he has not positively willed it.


Whether God simply allowed or positively willed this or that natural disaster is not for us to know.
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You are the voice of reason.

Edited September 18, 2005 by angels111