God's Judgement and Pagan Nations

[son_of_angels]

Let me try to make my position clear again. All disasters, sufferings, etc. come about as a result of sin, not neccessarily any definable person's sin, but sin nonetheless.
Sin does not care whether or not a person is poor or rich, but God's grace does. Sin does not care if the person it kills is a child or adult, but Jesus does.

Sure, innocent people died, suffered, and were hurt because of sin. THAT'S THE POINT. After all, the most innocent Person in the world died because of sin.

To this extent, suffering is always a way to remind us of the ravages of sin, and to accept them, either as a Cross of penance and contrition, or as despair. Through despair God lays low the nations, and crushes the peoples in his wrath.

Just think about this way. For the faithful, innocent Catholics who endure this suffering as coming about because of sin and as the will of God, it will be a lot less Purgatory to have to worry with.

[Jaime]

I'm in no way disagreeing about the fact that disasters are the result of sin. That is an accepted point.

What I object to is the idea that when something horrific happens, people jump on the chastisement bandwagon. Because there is a huge difference. I understand that people want to try to make sense of a disaster of this magnitude. But saying that it is a chastisement is simply not a logical or theological response. Its "pull it out of your..... air" theology. That's why DJ can't come up with any scriptural reference or theological reference that backs him up.

When children died of smallpox, they said it was God's will. When they found a cure for it they called it science.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]When children died of smallpox, they said it was God's will. When they found a cure for it they called it science. [/quote]

what?

and I have given a scriptual referance.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:19 PM']what?

and I have given a scriptual referance.
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I hear that a lot from you when we debate.

And yet I see nothing related to scripture.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:37 PM']I hear that a lot from you when we debate. 

And yet I see nothing related to scripture.
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Many of the rich escaped from the babylonian captivity, they are mentioned in the book of Kings, do you not think the captivity was a chastisment.

[son_of_angels]

[quote]When children died of smallpox, they said it was God's will. When they found a cure for it they called it science.
[/quote]

That is because, this side of the fall, people are ungrateful little creatures, and God puts up with them. The least we can do is put up with Him.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 9 2005, 02:39 PM']Many of the rich escaped from the babylonian captivity, they are mentioned in the book of Kings, do you not think the captivity was a chastisment.
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1. You could be more specific. There are two books and I really don't feel the need to do your research for you

2. if you are referring to this passage

[quote] In the eighth year of the reign of the king of Babylon, he took Jehoiachin prisoner. 13 As the LORD had declared, Nebuchadnezzar removed all the treasures from the temple of the LORD and from the royal palace, and took away all the gold articles that Solomon king of Israel had made for the temple of the LORD. 14 He carried into exile all Jerusalem: all the officers and fighting men, and all the craftsmen and artisans—a total of ten thousand. Only the poorest people of the land were left.[/quote]

Then no they didn't escape. They were led away as prisoners.

If you are referring to this passage

[quote]In the seventh month, however, Ishmael son of Nethaniah, the son of Elishama, who was of royal blood, came with ten men and assassinated Gedaliah and also the men of Judah and the Babylonians who were with him at Mizpah. 26 At this, all the people from the least to the greatest, together with the army officers, fled to Egypt for fear of the Babylonians.[/quote]

Then no it clearly states everyone


Honestly Don, I don't particularly feel like debating your side as well as mine. Especially when you don't have a leg to stand on.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 9 2005, 03:59 PM']1.  You could be more specific.  There are two books and I really don't feel the need to do your research for you

2. if you are referring to this passage
Then no they didn't escape.  They were led away as prisoners. 

If you are referring to this passage
Then no it clearly states everyone
Honestly Don, I don't particularly feel like debating your side as well as mine.  Especially when you don't have a leg to stand on.
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Actually I was thinking of another I ill find it for you later, the NFP thread has consummed all my spare time.

[Jaime]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 9 2005, 03:46 PM']That is because, this side of the fall, people are ungrateful little creatures, and God puts up with them.  The least we can do is put up with Him.
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The point of my example is that something cannot be "God's will" one minute and a "solution of science" the next.

Oh and bump above the pointless old polls. Harumph

[son_of_angels]

Indeed. So either an event is an act of science or one of God's will? An act reasonably explained, or one with divine intervention?

Or can it be both? Can Katrina have formed by the collision of warm air and cold air over the Gulf, and yet also be a punishment for sin?

[Jaime]

There is Divine law and below that is natural law. Natural law is in place because God put it there. It is God's will that the laws of motion were put in place. It is free will that has corrupted the system.

Nature's law however is a far cry from the chastisements of the Almighty.

[son_of_angels]

So free will corrupts? I recall fre will being the great example of God's love towards us.

Let me ask you this. When can you actually be absolutely certain of the "active will" of God?

[son_of_angels]

Let me also ask you this, do you think, before the fall of man, that hurricanes would have destroyed entire cities killing thousands?

[Jaime]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 10 2005, 11:55 AM']So free will corrupts?  I recall fre will being the great example of God's love towards us.

Let me ask you this.  When can you actually be absolutely certain of the "active will" of God?
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Yes free will corrupts. When we choose to turn away from grace, we cause things to be out of balance. And yes free will is one of the greatest gifts God has ever given us. Why would you think the two ideas would be mutually exclusive?

As for being certain, except for what I've read in scripture, I don't know. But you can tell when it isn't the active will of God. Like Katrina for example.

Sometimes bad things happen. That's it.

[Jaime]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 10 2005, 11:57 AM']Let me also ask you this, do you think, before the fall of man, that hurricanes would have destroyed entire cities killing thousands?
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I don't think there were any hurricanes in paradise.