God's Judgement and Pagan Nations

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hierochloe' date='Sep 6 2005, 05:45 PM']Ouch, I'll have to remember that one.
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why it's just the cry of someone who can't make an actual arguement to support his position. Remember the Magestirium is not something that just sprung up, what was said 1000 years ago is just as valid and true as what is said tomorrow.

[Jaime]

Here's something for the chastiser theorists.

If this was the chastisement from the Almighty. Why did the full wrath lay waste to only the poor?

New Orleans has 24% of its population under the poverty line. The people that were able to get out had money.


So what are we saying here? God chastised the poor?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 6 2005, 06:06 PM']Here's something for the chastiser theorists. 

If this was the chastisement from the Almighty.  Why did the full wrath lay waste to only the poor? 

New Orleans has 24% of its population under the poverty line.  The people that were able to get out had money. 
So what are we saying here?  God chastised the poor?
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Well Jamie comig as someone most would call poor, who lives in what most would concider a poor nieghborhood ( the hood anyone?) I can assure you the poor sin also. In many ways in the modern world they sin more, that just is how it is. And lets be realistic, no one in Urban America who isn't homeless is really poor, not like the poor of the past.

That said many of the rich have suffered, they after all had more to lose.

[Jaime]

Missing the point.

The rich were able to get out. The poor who couldn't are going through hell.

So if this was truly a chastisement of God, if you made enough money, you could get a pass on it?


Faulty logic.

[son_of_angels]

hot stuff,

When I say chastisement, I mean that it was an act of love and correction by God. How do I mean that? First in that he offers to everyone, old and young, rich and poor, the glory of the cross and that alone. Second in that all suffering comes as a result of sin, either our own, or anyone else's.

I say this in reference to the Cross, for "in it alone I glory." No one would say that his suffering came about as a direct result of Christ's own sin, for he had no sin. Yet still it came about because of sin, our own sin.

Katrina came because of sin, bearing with it the full Will of God, just as the cross (however horrid in sight) came about with the full Will of God. Those who suffer, suffer because of sin, and God cannot allow sin to go unrequited.

What does this mean? It means that for those who have hope, the hope which Christ has given us by his grace and love, catastrophe is love, correction, and the Cross. It is His way of laying on us the penance of the world, and so joining, with Mary the Co-redemptrix, the mystery of Christ's Passion. Suffering MUST have meaning to those within the Hope of Christ.

To those without hope, it is a "sign of contradiction," to borrow a phrase. Those who have no hope will have less, and will find themselves at the end of life's ability to preserve them. Remember Christ's words "To those who have, more will be given. To those who have not, even what they have will be taken away." For them, suffering must be an admonition to leave everything, take up their cross, and follow Him.

Enough of this "active" and "passive" will nonsense. Here is where I get controversial. There are very few cases, and in those cases God is given a specific prophetic voice, biblically, where God's active will is known. It is better to simply accept that "God's ways are not our ways." We do not understand his active will, nor can we.

However, to try and defend God by saying it is his "passive" will is modern silliness. Is it not still God's will? And is his will, passive or active, not still perfect? We don't need to know what is God's active and passive will is, for we cannot understand even enough of our universe to understand what WE are, or where our will begins and ends. Who will map out the mind of God?

We need only know that God's will is God's will, and our will must be for God's will above all.

"Take up your cross, and follow me."

Edited September 6, 2005 by son_of_angels

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 6 2005, 06:14 PM']Missing the point. 

The rich were able to get out.  The poor who couldn't are going through hell. 

So if this was truly a chastisement of God, if you made enough money, you could get a pass on it?
Faulty logic.
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I didn't miss the point, the innocent often must suffer with the guilty. And anyone could get out, the poor could get out as much as a rich man, agian, you could just WALK! Oh no walking is a sign of degradation isn't it, I mean just because it was good enough for Christ and the apostles and for just about everyone in history, the poor of new orleans where some how prevented from it. And so i guess your denying the Babylonian Captivity was a chastisment as well because if you where rich enough you could have escaped the Babylonians? The rich always are more likly to escape, they are rich. And agian you miss the point, God Chastens those who He is offering redemption to, so the poor would be more likely Chastised, those who escape, who suffer not, have no oppertunity to unite their suffering with that of Christ, they are less likely to be saved and their suffering in the next life ( even if they are saved) will be propotionally greater. So the fact that the rich might have had a better chance of getting away is really not an issue. There is no faulty logic here except yours.

[son_of_angels]

I think this topic needs to continue to be discussed, so here's a bump!

[Jaime]

Here's the thing.

Nowhere are you going to find in scripture a chastisement that you could get a pass on because you had enough cash. And trying to justify this belief is quite honestly, ridiculous.

I'm not a believer in the whole global warming thing. But at least they have an argument that you have to think about.

[quote]why it's just the cry of someone who can't make an actual arguement to support his position. [/quote]

Funny I was thinking the same thing about your chastisement theory.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 7 2005, 11:11 PM']Here's the thing. 

Nowhere are you going to find in scripture a chastisement that you could get a pass on because you had enough cash. And trying to justify this belief is quite honestly, ridiculous. 

I'm not a believer in the whole global warming thing.  But at least they have an argument that you have to think about. 
Funny I was thinking the same thing about your chastisement theory.
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Agian Jamie do you even understand what Chastisment is?

[Jaime]

I may be the only one in the conversation that does. Others just use chastisement as the easy answer. Its like trying to comfort someone who lost a loved one by saying "Its God's will".


Nothing that you have stated is anything but personal opinion DJ. Please show me somewhere scripturally or theologically that states that one can avoid the Chastisement of the Almighty if you have enough cash on you. You won't be able to. Chastisements from God are not something that can be avoided.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 8 2005, 01:43 PM']I may be the only one in the conversation that does.  Others just use chastisement as the easy answer.  Its like trying to comfort someone who lost a loved one by saying "Its God's will". 
Nothing that you have stated is anything but personal opinion DJ.  Please show me somewhere scripturally or theologically that states that one can avoid the Chastisement of the Almighty if you have enough cash on you.  You won't be able to.  Chastisements from God are not something that can be avoided.
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First I wuld argue no one in N.O. escaped Chastisment, the entire city is after all being emptied everyone has been chastised some simply more than others. That said there are 2 options.

Those who had money and " escaped" did so because it was the active will of God thatthey do so and the money was incedental.

or

One accepts that money might very well allow one to run from the Chastisment of God and therefore reduce the said persons chances of salvation. This infact could be part of the reason why it is so difficult for a rich man to get into heaven.

I would argue that the very quality of being rich inherintly makes on avoid the routine chastisment that the poor endure daily, and that the suffering the poor endure causes them to either become more Faithful and pure or to embrace evil. The Rich have no such daily test and therefore have not the same stimulous to purification.

[Aloysius]

we should take all natural disasters as chastisements... not necessarily for one thing in particular because we cannot know such things about the Mind of God, but ultimately it is a result of our being expelled from the Garden of Eden where there would be no such storms.

It is not a direct sodom and gomorrah type punishment... unless you are of the opinion that there was not even ONE just man in the entire city of New Orleans. (there's Catholics there, there had to be at least ONE and thusly God would have spared the city if He was planning some direct brimstone and fire deal of hurricanity)

but ultimately all storms are chastisements from God, and the people of New Orleans and the people of the United States should take this moment to reflect on what their culture is and how they act. sort of like a near-death experience like "i could have been killed in such a storm" but more in the Catholic sense where it's "God will take us at any time" deal...

it is a chastisement, in that through all suffering we are purified. we must be strengthened by the suffering. the city of New Orleans and indeed the entire country should feel chastised by God and re-examine its priorities and values. there is no point in speculating about the mind of God any other way.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Sep 8 2005, 02:12 PM']we should take all natural disasters as chastisements... not necessarily for one thing in particular because we cannot know such things about the Mind of God, but ultimately it is a result of our being expelled from the Garden of Eden where there would be no such storms.

It is not a direct sodom and gomorrah type punishment... unless you are of the opinion that there was not even ONE just man in the entire city of New Orleans. (there's Catholics there, there had to be at least ONE and thusly God would have spared the city if He was planning some direct brimstone and fire deal of hurricanity)

but ultimately all storms are chastisements from God, and the people of New Orleans and the people of the United States should take this moment to reflect on what their culture is and how they act.  sort of like a near-death experience like "i could have been killed in such a storm" but more in the Catholic sense where it's "God will take us at any time" deal...

it is a chastisement, in that through all suffering we are purified.  we must be strengthened by the suffering.  the city of New Orleans and indeed the entire country should feel chastised by God and re-examine its priorities and values.  there is no point in speculating about the mind of God any other way.
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He didn't spare sodom for the sake of Lot.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Sep 8 2005, 02:13 PM']He didn't spare sodom for the sake of Lot.
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He also didn't spare Lot for being a CEO of a major company.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 8 2005, 10:53 PM']He also didn't spare Lot for being a CEO of a major company.
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Are you saying that Lot wasn't chastised by the destruction of Sodom?