God's Judgement and Pagan Nations

[MC Just]

does God not judge pagan nations anymore? I'm getting the impresion from many people that such things dont happen anymore. Especially here in usa many people act as if this country is exempt from God's Judgement...

God let the Romans destroy jerusalem(his own peolpe), how much more will he act towards other nations that turn against him?

Edited September 2, 2005 by MC Just

[Norseman82]

Well, sometimes our actions haved consequences enough of their own, so in my view that is "built-in" judgement. I'm not going to go through every example, but take sexual promiscuity and how it leads to abortion, out-of-wedlock births, STDs, etc. Look at the high divorce rate and how it affects family life, at how often weekends are planned around who has custody that weekend.

Society today needs to wake up and connect the dots.

[avemaria40]

I agree

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Sep 3 2005, 12:13 PM']Well, sometimes our actions haved consequences enough of their own, so in my view that is "built-in" judgement.  I'm not going to go through every example, but take sexual promiscuity and how it leads to abortion, out-of-wedlock births, STDs, etc.  Look at the high divorce rate and how it affects family life, at how often weekends are planned around who has custody that weekend.

Society today needs to wake up and connect the dots.
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RESPONSE:

I always have trouble when someone claims a causal chain such as this. It reminds me of the old song about "Trouble in River City" all because of playing pool.

Lets prefix your chain by claiming that eating is the really beginning of the consequences. That would because "eating" allows sexual promiscuity, leading to abortion, out of wedlock births, STD's etc.

So the real evil must be eating. If people didn't do that, none of the other consequences would follow. :

[musturde]

God doesn't punish nations. Nations usually find a way to dig their own holes to punish themselves for whatever they do wrong.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='musturde' date='Sep 3 2005, 01:13 PM']God doesn't punish nations. Nations usually find a way to dig their own holes to punish themselves for whatever they do wrong.
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Well that kind of rejects both Scripture and Tradition, God most certianly punishes Nations and States and even cities, 4 hurrcaines in just over a month last year for Flordia, Katrina for N.O. both are Chastisments, God punishes those that offend him, and those that offend him greatly he chastises greatly, at least that is what both theBbible and the Tradition of the Church tell us.

[Jaime]

So you're saying that Katrina was a chastisement from God?

[MichaelFilo]

I'd call it a storm. I also don't think God is an arbitrary "clockmaker" (may God forgive me for even making the connection). So I assume He has a guiding hand in these things.

God bless,
Mikey

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Sep 5 2005, 03:04 AM']So you're saying that Katrina was a chastisement from God?
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I'm not saying anything, I do not know the Mind of God but I [i]think[/i] it was/is a Chastisment, as I [i]think [/i]the pounding Flordia got last year was a Chastisment. 300 years ago people would be trying to figure out what they did to so seriously tic God off--- now we cry that he would never do such a thing. And so we do not Change--- the Pagans of Niniva where wiser than us.

[Era Might]

The French Quarter, and Bourbon Street, were among the places that weren't flooded in New Orleans.

I guess God approves of what goes on there during Mardi Gras, seeing as he spared them from his "chastisement".

This is the problem with speculating about things we can know nothing about.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Era Might

[son_of_angels]

God only chastises those whom he loves, but he smites those he hates. He lays low the nations in his wrath, and teaches those whom he loves.

In other words, if we say that God is punishing the city, that is true, for those who have sin in their lives. For those who do not have it, it is a way for them to bear the cross of Christ in their lives, joining in co-redemption the salvation of the whole world.

Christ makes no apology for man's suffering (e.g. "I did it 'cause they were bad!" or "Sorry, but I had to do it, for your own good"), nor does he need our apology. He demands our obedience. He demands we leave all that we have, by hurricane, by hook, or by crook, take up our cross and follow him. "Go to dark Gethsemene, ye who feel the tempter's power."

All who die or are struck with disease or are given any obstacle in life are given it as a result of sin, either their own, or humanity's in general. Christ's suffering was because of sin. Yet who would impute to him any guilt? Who would say that Christ had sinned? Yet, even He, freed from the stain of original sin, gave himself willingly to suffer for our sins, granting both the possibility of redemption and a supernal example for us to follow.

So it follows that, yes, Katrina came because of sin, to lay low the heathen, who have no hope, and to purify the hearts of those who have hope. "God is good, all the time!" Surely it is good, just, equal, and salutary to always and everywhere give him thanks!

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Sep 6 2005, 03:44 PM']The French Quarter, and Bourbon Street, were among the places that weren't flooded in New Orleans.

I guess God approves of what goes on there during Mardi Gras, seeing as he spared them from his "chastisement". 

This is the problem with speculating about things we can know nothing about.
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Atually they where damaged quite a bit, and the city as a whole is responsible for Madi Gras, perhaps He had other reasons for leaving them reasonable well intact, St. louis cathedral perhaps? or Perhaps a truly just man asked for it to be saved, or a man of faith ordered the waters back. We can certianly know that N.O. is a decadent place, and we know that God is offendedc by such things, and we know that an act of God has destroyed the place--- you do the math.

[hierochloe]

[quote name='son_of_angels' date='Sep 6 2005, 03:59 PM']So it follows that, yes, Katrina came because of sin, to lay low the heathen, who have no hope, and to purify the hearts of those who have hope.  "God is good, all the time!"
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I haven't heard anyone describe tragedy that way in some time. I can't fault it.

[MichaelFilo]

I second son_of_angels. God would punish and chastise where He sees fit, and denying a storm the full right it has as an act of God is a damned silly thing to do. What does God need to do, send a personal message? Historically speaking, anytime disease or disaster hit Christendom, Christians were quick to beg forgiveness and do penances. Why, because we can now describe a storm to be a wind movement, does this not apply? It is only a lack of faith in God's active Hand in this world that would let anyone think that not even the smallest drop of rain is God's Will in action.

God bless,
Mikey

[Era Might]

[quote]We can certianly know that N.O. is a decadent place, and we know that God is offendedc by such things, and we know that an act of God has destroyed the place--- you do the math.
[/quote]

No, *we* know no such thing.

If you have received a special revelation of God telling you his business, do what you see fit with that knowledge.

As is my right, I reject your private revelation, tooth and nail. I am content to preach Christ crucified, and not worry about peering into secrets of Divine Providence.

[quote]It is only a lack of faith in God's active Hand in this world that would let anyone think that not even the smallest drop of rain is God's Will in action.
[/quote]

God's will is classified according to his active and permissive will because, frankly, it doesn't matter. The point is not why something happened. The point is what are we going to do now that it has? Are we going to sit around and do useless speculating, or are we going to help those in need and move forward in faith.

His permissive will allows all things. That doesn't mean they are allowed as a chastisement. When a priest rapes a little boy, God isn't chastising that little boy. He has allowed it, but he has not positively willed it.

Whether God simply allowed or positively willed this or that natural disaster is not for us to know.

Edited September 6, 2005 by Era Might