A Rational Explanation of the Trinity

[LittleLes]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Sep 3 2005, 12:16 AM']lol.
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Response:

I'm afraid I just continue to provide factual evidence and documententaion.

I notice that no serious rebuttal is attempted. What does that show?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 3 2005, 07:13 AM']Response:

I'm afraid I just continue to provide factual evidence and documententaion.

I notice that no serious rebuttal is attempted. What does that show?
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I just read this last page of this thread so maybe I missed something, but what do you want a rebuttal of? The pithy statement about the Trinity? Just curious. If that is the case maybe you should present whatever argument you're trying to make because the sentence or two that I recall reading didn't strike me as much of an argument.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Sep 3 2005, 07:22 AM']I just read this last page of this thread so maybe I missed something, but what do you want a rebuttal of? The pithy statement about the Trinity? Just curious. If that is the case maybe you should present whatever argument you're trying to make because the sentence or two that I recall reading didn't strike me as much of an argument.
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RESPONSE:

Hi Laudate,

Take a look at post #46 which traces the creation of the doctrine of the Trinity up until Nicea, and post #56 which response to the usual rebutal that the early Christians always believed in the divinity of Jesus.

LittleLes

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 2 2005, 11:25 AM']RESPONSE:

Yes perhaps

But I think it beats  "the antinomy as essential to the apophatic nature of theology" and "theology the paradox is the revelation."

But some of us insist on dwelling in the real world. Not so, some others.
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There is no reality apart from God, and so the world does not exist autonomously; rather it exists in God, i.e., it exists within the divine energy flowing out from the three divine hypostases, both sustaining it, and in the incarnation and paschal mystery, perfecting, elevating, and divnizing it. As St. Paul said to the men at the Areopagus, "In Him we live and move and have our being." [Acts 17:28]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 3 2005, 07:35 AM']RESPONSE:

Hi Laudate,

Take a look at post #46 which traces the creation of the doctrine of the Trinity up until Nicea, and post #56 which response to the usual rebutal that the early Christians always believed in the divinity of Jesus.

LittleLes
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Cool. Thanks

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Sep 3 2005, 07:41 AM']There is no reality apart from God, and so the world does not exist autonomously; rather it exists in God, i.e., it exists within the divine energy flowing out from the three divine hypostases, both sustaining it, and in the incarnation and paschal mystery, perfecting, elevating, and divnizing it.  As St. Paul said to the men at the Areopagus, "In Him we live and move and have our being." [Acts 17:28]
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RESPONSE:

I belief that it was Aquinas who admitted that it could not be proven that the universe was not eternal.

Can you offer such a proof?

(Personally, I don't think it was, but I can't prove it).

LittleLes

[White Knight]

LittleLess, the problem is your rejecting every form of explaination out there, about the Trinity and other subjects. You aren't getting the hint, went people tell you the truth, and give you evidence.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Sep 3 2005, 11:30 AM']LittleLess, the problem is your rejecting every form of explaination out there, about the Trinity and other subjects. You aren't getting the hint, went people tell you the truth, and give you evidence.
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RESPONSE:

Yes indeed. I tend to reject explanations not supported by valid evidence. Not just what some people tell me but don't offer proof.

When I'm told that I have to leave logic aside and just accept something as evidence-no matter how unfounded - on faith, I become naturally suspicious.

Simply rehashing the party line without giving any proof isn't really evidence, you know.

In sum, as I have shown, there is no evidence that the original Christians professed the divinity of Jesus. They remained, instead, a Torah observant and monotheistic sect of Jews active in the Temple believing that Jesus was the Messiah, but not divine.

About 90 A.D, largely due to the influence of Hellenistic thought with its concept of the "Logos" ( especially developed in Gnoisticism), the Christian movement began to espouse the concept that Jesus was divine, but not equal to the Father. They were then excluded from the Temple.

Later, about 150 - 180 A.D. the concept of the Trinity came into vogue, but there were profound disagreements on the status of Jesus.

Only at Nicea in 325 A.D. was the dogma of the Trinity established by vote. But even following this - as we shall see- the contemporary Roman Catholic form of the Trinity was not universally accepted.

[White Knight]

LittleLess, all information that has been given is valid.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Sep 3 2005, 06:04 PM']LittleLess, all information that has been given is valid.
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RESPONSE:

I'm afraid that the explanation "it's a mystery" applies equally well to Santa Claus.

In essense "all information that has been given" does not at all approve the existence of the Trinity. At best it proves that we are dealing with a fiction.

We are suppose to have God the Father who is unbegotten, but begets God the Son, his equal who is likewise eternal. If so, then he wasn't begotten at all. And the Holy Ghost who must proceed from the Father and the Son although he too is eternal.

Those not trapped by a believe system, and who are allowed to examine this claim rationally ,see the contadiction. Something cannot be both eternal and begotten or proceed from. It's like a square circle.

Littleles

[LittleLes]

And there are different versions of the "mystery" of the Trinity. But, of course, if you are going to have a "mystery" different versions can easily exist.

One major historical disagreement on the Trinity teaching is that between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orghodox Church. Again, the on-line Wikipedia provides a good short summation:

"The Eastern Orthodox church holds that the filioque clause, i.e., the added words "and the Son" (in Latin, filioque), constitutes heresy. One reason for this is that it undermines the personhood of the Holy Spirit; is there not also perfect love between the Father and the Holy Spirit, and if so, would this love not also share the perfection of real existence? At this rate, there would be an infinite number of persons of the Godhead, unless some persons were subordinate so that their love were less perfect and therefore need not share the perfection of real existence."

But I guess there are even contradictions in mysteries.

[White Knight]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 3 2005, 07:08 PM']RESPONSE:

I'm afraid that the explanation "it's a mystery" applies equally well to Santa Claus.

In essense "all information that has been given" does not at all approve the existence of the Trinity. At best it proves that we are dealing with a fiction.

We are suppose to have God the Father who is unbegotten, but begets God the Son, his equal who is likewise eternal. If so, then he wasn't begotten at all. And the Holy Ghost  who must proceed from the Father and the Son although he too is eternal.

Those not trapped by a believe system, and who are allowed to examine this claim rationally ,see the contadiction. Something cannot be both eternal and begotten or proceed from. It's like a square circle.

Littleles
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There is no contadiction, what you see is a lack of understanding about the Trinity, you have gotten into this to the point where you dont even know what your saying. Your just making excuses to believe in the truth and mystery of the Holy Trinity. one which cannot be understood with a sin bound mindset and due to our living condictions on Earth, none of us will ever discover the fullness and come to understanding fully of the Holy Trinity.


Its something you take on Faith. and your nitpicking about something that isn't even contradicting, its a matter of condiction, why is this so hard for you to understand? why is it you dont except truth, or even credible evidence when its presented to you?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Sep 4 2005, 01:37 AM']There is no contadiction, what you see is a lack of understanding about the Trinity, you have gotten into this to the point where you dont even know what your saying. Your just making excuses to believe in the truth and mystery of the Holy Trinity. one which cannot be understood with a sin bound mindset and due to our living condictions on Earth, none of us will ever discover the fullness and come to understanding fully of the Holy Trinity.
Its something you take on Faith. and your nitpicking about something that isn't even contradicting, its a matter of condiction, why is this so hard for you to understand? why is it you dont except truth, or even credible evidence when its presented to you?
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RESPONSE:

Question: If someone tells you 2 + 2 = 5, and you just have to take that on faith, do you?

What if they tell you the only reason you think that 2 + 2 = 4 is because you have "a sin bound mindset," would that convince you?

What if they then argue that you only believe that 2 + 2 = 4 because of your "living conditions on earth." Is this argument any more convincing?

Even Origen (185-254 A.D.), considered one of the greatest of all Christian theologians, in his "On First Principles," was one of those who created the doctrine of the Trinity, but he didn't support the current Catholic teaching:

"The God and Father, who holds the universe together, is superior to every being that exists, for he imparts to each one from his own existence that which each one is; the Son, being less than the Father, is superior to rational creatures alone (for he is second to the Father); the Holy Spirit is still less, and dwells within the saints alone. So that in this way the power of the Father is greater than that of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and that of the Son is more than that of the Holy Spirit, and in turn the power of the Holy Spirit exceeds that of every other holy being "(Fragment 9 [Koetschau] tr. Butterworth 1966, pp. 33-34, and footnote)

Observe, even Origen describes a graduation of divinity, not equality. (Rumor has it that Origen thought the 2 + 2 = 4 too. So he must have lacked faith because of a "sin bound mindset." You think ?)

I know. It's a mystery.

[White Knight]

Okay first of all you never answered my question nor understood it. things like 2+2=4 does not even measure up to this okay. 2+2=4 is a solid cold fact, that we all know, so is the Holy Trinity as God Himself exists is a fact. but in the measure of how He exists and is portrayed, is beyond logic. God is far inlogically, that its logically, if that makes any sense to you, then good your understanding the basics then.


But you are comparing simple with EXTREMELY Complacated evidence here, it doesn't fly.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Sep 4 2005, 02:19 PM']Okay first of all you never answered my question nor understood it. things like 2+2=4 does not even measure up to this okay. 2+2=4 is a solid cold fact, that we all know, so is the Holy Trinity as God Himself exists is a fact. but in the measure of how He exists and is portrayed, is beyond logic. God is far inlogically, that its logically, if that makes any sense to you, then good your understanding the basics then.
But you are comparing simple with EXTREMELY Complacated evidence here, it doesn't fly.
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RESPONSE:

No. It is certainly not a "fact" that the Holy Trinity exists. There is no "evidence" that it does.

The existence of God is a seperate matter and need have no conncection with the Trinity. Judaism, for example, is a monotheistic religion which does not ascribe to the "fact" of the Trinity.

The Roman Catholic and the Orthodox Catholic religions believe belief in the Trinity, but each considers the other's "belief" to be heretical.