A Rational Explanation of the Trinity

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Sep 1 2005, 10:22 AM']Where did you get this history from.  Didn't Peter and the Apostles declare the Divinity of Christ, to which Jesus forbid them to tell anyone before He died?  Peter said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the Living God".  Thomas said, "My Lord and my God".

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RESPONSE:

From the on-line Wikipedia (The on-line Catholic Encyclopedia contains a similar, but much wordier explanation):


In the Hebrew Bible, the phrase "sons of god" has multiple meanings:
The Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "The Sons of God", describes angels, demigods or immensely powerful human beings. See Genesis 6:2-4. Many Bible scholars believe that this is a reference to pre-Biblical near-eastern mythology.
It is used to denote a human judge or ruler (Ps. lxxxii. 6, "children of the Most High"; in many passages "gods" and "judges" seem to be equations); and to the real or ideal king over Israel (II Sam. vii. 14, with reference to David and his dynasty; comp. Ps. lxxxix. 27, 28).
The phrases "sons of God" and "children of God" are applied to Israel as a people (comp. Ex. iv. 22 and Hos. xi. 1), the Jewish people, and also to all members of the human race.
In the Hebrew Bible the term does not connote any form of physical descent from, or essential unity with, God. The Hebrew idiom conveys an expression of godlikeness."

In the synoptic gospels, Jesus is referred to as the Messiah or the "Christ" the anointed and the Son of God. But this did not mean God. See above.

But when we come to John's Gospel, written between 95 A.D. to 105 A.D., the concept that Jesus was actually God was claimed ( see Thomas' exclamation). But this was not the case in the first three Gospels.

Note also that the original Christians remained a Temple worshipping sect within orthodox and monotheistic Judaism. But they were expelled as heretics about 90 A.D. Question: Would the Jewish leaders have allowed the early Christians to remain orthodox Jews if they had claimed divinity for Jesus early on?

And again from "Wiki" there is this about the term Messiah:

"In Judaism, the Messiah (מָשִׁיחַ "Anointed one", Standard Hebrew Mašíaḥ, Tiberian Hebrew Māšîªḥ) initially meant any person who was anointed by God. In the first century, it was interpreted to refer more specifically to someone appointed by God to lead His people in the face of their tribulations with Rome. The prophecies regarding this person refer to him as a descendant of King David who will rebuild the nation of Israel and bring world peace by restoring the Davidic Kingdom."

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Sep 1 2005, 07:48 AM']So the Person of the Father is greater than the Person of the Son and the Person of the Holy Spirit.

But the Nature of all three is the Same One God...

Am I reading you right on that?

If One Person in His Nature is greater than any of the other two, then really you are saying that God is greater than... another god.  For One God cannot be greater than Himself.

But if one of the Person's of God is greater, it must not be in Nature, but rather simply in Person.  God the Father is greater than God the Son, not because of their Nature - which is God in either case, but rather because of their Person. 

I'm with you now... I think...
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Yes, the Father is greater hypostatically because He takes His hypostatic origin from no one, and He is the sole cause of the Son and the Spirit's hypostases.

In other words, the Father is hypostatically (as peson) greater than the Son and Spirit, but this involves no essential difference or inequality, because the three hypostases are one in essence.

The Father is the only source of divinity.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 1 2005, 07:52 AM']RESPONSE:

The problem with the above explanation is that a cause must preceed the effect it causes.

LittleLes
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This is false, because the term "cause" ([i]aitia[/i]) is being used in a non-temporal sense in Byzantine theology.

One must not confuse -- as is commonly done in the West -- philosophy with theology.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Sep 1 2005, 10:22 AM']

When begetting includes the transformation or creation of material by God, then yes, we are begotten by Him, being made by Him.  But the Father doesn't beget the Son through creation.  The Son is begotten, not made.  Which means this.  The Son is who He is because the Father is who He is.  And the Holy Spirit is who He is, because the Father and Son are who they are.  All Being God means that each Person has always been who each one is.
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RESPONSE:

If God the Father is "unbegotten" but Jesus was "begotten" and the Holy Spirit " proceeds from the Father and the So which is the greater, which is the second greater, and which is the least?

And Trinity isn't mentioned in the Old Testament. And in the New Testament, Jesus' sayings and actions seem th make him subordinate to God the Father and show him lacking in divine knowledge.

First of all, Jesus admits that the Father, but not himself, knows the day and hour of the end of the world. But he claims this will occur during the lifetime of some of those with him and that generation would not pass away untill it was accomplished. But it did. He tells one follower not to call him "good" because only God is good. He claims that he is going to the Father and that "the Father is greater than I." Of course, all these are found in the synoptic gospels.


LittleLes

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Sep 1 2005, 12:59 PM']This is false, because the term "cause" ([i]aitia[/i]) is being used in a non-temporal sense in Byzantine theology.

One must not confuse -- as is commonly done in the West -- philosophy with theology.
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RESPONSE:

How can "cause" be used in a non-temporal sense? If something "causes" something else, it has "acted" upon it. And if something "acts" that presuposes that it already exists.


And don't the principles of philosophy form the underpinning of theology?Doesn't theology have to be reality oriented?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 1 2005, 11:18 AM']RESPONSE:

How can "cause" be used in a non-temporal sense?   If something "causes" something else, it has "acted" upon it. And if something "acts" that presuposes that it already exists.
And don't the principles of philosophy form the underpinning of theology?Doesn't  theology have to be reality oriented?
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Well, for you as a Westerner it is probably impossible, but that is because the West focuses far too much attention on profane philosophy and tries to define what God is, or how He exists, but the Eastern Churches do not do that.

The word "cause" ([i]aitia[/i]) is used in a wholly non-temporal sense in Byzantine theology, and stands for the Father as sole eternal existential origin of the eternal hypostases of the Son and Spirit. This is a mystery beyond any form of human comprehension. In fact God can never be, even in the slightest degree, comprehended rationally, because He is beyond being; in fact, God is beyond God, or as St. Maximos the Confessor said, "God is infinitely beyond the infinite."

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Sep 1 2005, 01:27 PM']Well, for you as a Westerner it is probably impossible, but that is because the West focuses far too much attention on profane philosophy and tries to define what God is, or how He exists, but the Eastern Churches do not do that.

The word "cause" ([i]aitia[/i]) is used in a wholly non-temporal sense in Byzantine theology, and stands for the Father as sole eternal existential origin of the eternal hypostases of the Son and Spirit.  This is a mystery beyond any form of human comprehension.  In fact God can never be, even in the slightest degree, comprehended rationally, because He is beyond being; in fact, God is beyond God, or as St. Maximos the Confessor said, "God is infinitely beyond the infinite."
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RESPONSE:

I think the Catholic "It's a mystery!" claim is vastly overplayed.

"God is beyond God"? Really? And if we claim that we know God is infinite, than that is at least one aspect that is not beyond any form of human comprehension.

What about his very existence? Can we know of that, or was Vatican II wrong on that point?

(When I was in the third grade, I used to tell Sister Josephine that evidently my homework had disappeared. "It's a mystery!" Somehow she didn't buy that explanation, but used the same one when contradictions about God were pointed out to her).

[Jake Huether]

[quote]RESPONSE:

If God the Father is "unbegotten" but Jesus was "begotten" and the Holy Spirit " proceeds from the Father and the  So which is the greater, which is the second greater, and which is the least?[/quote]

The Father is Greater than the Son and the Holy Spirit, in Person. The Father and the Son are greater than the Holy Spirit, in Person. In Nature they are all equal.

[quote]And Trinity isn't mentioned in the Old Testament.  And in the New Testament, Jesus' sayings and actions seem th make him subordinate to God the Father and show him lacking in divine knowledge.[/quote]

Jesus, as a Person, is both God in Nature and human in nature. So that indeed, in His human nature, Jesus didn't have divine knowledge. He grew in wisdom and stature. But in His Divine Nature, Jesus did know all, as the Father knows all - since He and the Father are one in Divine Nature.



[quote]First of all, Jesus admits that the Father, but not himself, knows the day and hour of the end of the world. But he claims this will occur during the lifetime of some of those with him and that generation would not pass away untill it was accomplished. But it did. He tells one follower not to call him "good" because only God is good. He claims that he is going to the Father and that "the Father is greater than I." Of course, all these are found in the synoptic gospels.[/quote]

The Father is greater than the Son for the same reason that Ap. had shown. The Son is who He is, because the Father is who He is. Jesus doesn't tell him not to call him good. Jesus asks him why he is calling Him good, since God alone is good. It's rhetorical, since Jesus is God. But Jesus wants the guy to realize it. The follower doesn't really answer the question though, in fact, you can see by the ending of this chapter the true character of this guy - as he will not give up his riches to follow Christ! The dude didn't really think Jesus was God, and therefore didn't follow Him - and that is why Jesus asked.

Had the guy truly believed, he would have answered, "Because you are God"! And he probably would have sold all his stuff and followed Jesus anyway.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 1 2005, 12:47 PM']RESPONSE:

I think the Catholic "It's a mystery!" claim is vastly overplayed.

"God is beyond God"? Really? And if we claim that we know God is infinite, than that is at least one aspect that is not beyond any form of human comprehension.

What about his very existence? Can we know of that, or was Vatican II wrong on that point?

(When I was in the third grade, I used to tell Sister Josephine that evidently my homework had disappeared. "It's a mystery!" Somehow she didn't buy that explanation, but used the same one when contradictions about God were pointed out to her).
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LittleLes,

It seems that you don't understand the meaning of "Mystery" in Catholic Theology.

A Mystery isn't mysterious. It isn't something we can look for and find - like Catholics are a bunch of Sherlock's.

A Mystery is Divine Truth. It cannot be explained simply because, in human terms, it is unexplainable. But it isn't hidden from us. God revealse it to us. We can know God is infinite, because God has revealed it to us. We otherwise wouldn't have been able to comprehend it. Note: To comprehend means to understand. We can know without understanding. This is the definition of a mystery.

The Trinity is a Mystery. The Resurrection is. How God, in the Person of Christ Jesus, died for our sins. The Assencion....

These are things that, if not revealed to us, cannot be known through understanding.

"In conformity with the usage of the inspired writers of the New Testament, theologians give the name mystery to revealed truths that surpass the powers of natural reason. "

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10662a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10662a.htm[/url]

[LittleLes]

" A Mystery is Divine Truth. It cannot be explained simply because, in human terms, it is unexplainable. But it isn't hidden from us. God revealse it to us. We can know God is infinite, because God has revealed it to us. We otherwise wouldn't have been able to comprehend it. Note: To comprehend means to understand. We can know without understanding. This is the definition of a mystery. "

Response:

Isn't it more probably that a "mystery" is claimed because what the audience is being told is rather obviously contradictory or irrational.

But if the teller can convince the listener that " God revealed it to us" (a claim not usually supported by any evidence), and that it is really "a mystery," then the teller can get out of being pinned down and his error recognized.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Sep 1 2005, 02:17 PM']"  A Mystery is Divine Truth. It cannot be explained simply because, in human terms, it is unexplainable. But it isn't hidden from us. God revealse it to us. We can know God is infinite, because God has revealed it to us. We otherwise wouldn't have been able to comprehend it. Note: To comprehend means to understand. We can know without understanding. This is the definition of a mystery. "

Response:

Isn't it more probably that a "mystery" is claimed because what the audience is being told is rather obviously contradictory or irrational.

But if the teller can convince the listener that  " God revealed it to us" (a claim  not usually supported by any evidence), and that it is really "a mystery," then the teller can get out of being pinned down and his error recognized.
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If Ap or I didn't have any supporting evidence, why would we post several pages of Theology... just to prove ourselves right?? LOL.

We didn't say it was a mystery to get out of being pinned. We stated that it was a mystery so that you would understand that we are only stating what's been revealed to us.

Although it's taken all my brain power even to grasp what it was that was revealed to me, neither Ap nor I have conjured any of what we have said ourselves. We were given this info through the revelation of God via His Church!

You are trying to comprehend the mystery of the Trinity within the bounds of creation. We are trying to explain it to you within the bounds of the Spiritual reality it is. Loose yourself from the physical constraints of humanity and bring your thoughts to the Spiritual Realm.

God is a Spirit. And God is infinite. These have been revealed. The fact that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has been revealed. The reasons for Him being who He is, is only known by Him Which simply IS. We cannot give you any explenation except that which has been given to us.

And if you cannot understand that, than there is nothing either of us can do to express it any differently.

We cannot force you to believe that what we have, we have recieved from God.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Sep 1 2005, 04:09 PM']If Ap or I didn't have any supporting evidence, why would we post several pages of Theology... just to prove ourselves right??  LOL.

We didn't say it was a mystery to get out of being pinned.  We stated that it was a mystery so that you would understand that we are only stating what's been revealed to us.

Although it's taken all my brain power even to grasp what it was that was revealed to me, neither Ap nor I have conjured any of what we have said ourselves.  We were given this info through the revelation of God via His Church!

You are trying to comprehend the mystery of the Trinity within the bounds of creation.  We are trying to explain it to you within the bounds of the Spiritual reality it is.  Loose yourself from the physical constraints of humanity and bring your thoughts to the Spiritual Realm.

God is a Spirit.  And God is infinite.  These have been revealed.  The fact that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has been revealed.  The reasons for Him being who He is, is only known by Him Which simply IS.  We cannot give you any explenation except that which has been given to us. 

And if you cannot understand that, than there is nothing either of us can do to express it any differently. 

We cannot force you to believe that what we have, we have recieved from God.
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RESPONSE:

1. Several pages of theology or mythology?

2. My friend Ralph who lives down the street, and who hit his head when falling from a bicycle on the way to Damascus (Oregon), says he saw a bright light and heard voices, now tells me of the things that have "been revealed" to him. Think I should believe what he says? Or should I ask for some evidence?

3. He's founded a church, too. So now if he says his revelations come via his church, should I believe them?

4. By Spiritual Realm, I assume that you talking about a "mystery" again, not something intelligble. "You just gotta believe!" eh?

5. Did Ralph or someone like Ralph "reveal" that? Did you ask for any evidence, or do you just believe what you are told to believe?

6. Ralph says he has revelations from God too.

[White Knight]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Sep 1 2005, 09:48 AM']White Knight,

The analogies are great.  And they help. 

One must, however, realize that it would be impossible to come up with a very complete analogy for an infinite God, using only finite things.

A 3 leaf clover is devided into it's three parts so that while it is one leaf, it has three equal parts of the one leaf.  If I rip off one of the parts of the leaf and ask if it itself is a clover, one would reply, "No".  Because it is only a part of the clover.

H2O while it is frozen cannot at the same moment be water or vapor.  Water cannot be Ice at the same time.  And at the triple point of H20, you don't have all of the h20 being ice, water and vapor at the same time.  You simply have parts of the h20 existing in their various states.

God on the other hand is always Father, Son and Holy Spirit, each one Being completely God.  And if I take the Father and ask if He is God, one must say yes.  If I take the Son and ask if He is God, one must also say yes.  And the same with the Holy Spirit.  This is because the Nature of each is God - infinite. 

If God could somehow be infinite in whole, yet finite in three parts, than indeed the Father, Son and Holy Spirit would be distinct persons, who, when put together could be God...  But this doesn't make sense since three finites will never be infinite.

But it helps nontheless to look at analogies to put together visual aid in spiritual realities.

God bless.
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Oh I agree completely, but its the easiest way to understand the Basics, and since, we wont find out the fullness of the Holy Trinity on Earth, we have to wait until we go to Heaven to understand that.

[Jake Huether]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Sep 1 2005, 03:42 PM']Oh I agree completely, but its the easiest way to understand the Basics, and since, we wont find out the fullness of the Holy Trinity on Earth, we have to wait until we go to Heaven to understand that.
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Amen Bro.

And LittleLess,

It is obviouse that you are just baiting now. The info is there.

God bless, and my prayers are with you.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Sep 1 2005, 04:50 PM']Amen Bro.

And LittleLess,

It is obviouse that you are just baiting now.  The info is there.

God bless, and my prayers are with you.
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RESPONSE:

No. The story which emerged in the fourth century is there. Not the information. The information may be what you are told to believe and, of course, you can't question it because it's a mystery, don't you know.

Perhaps I can present the creation of the doctrine of the Trinity. Especially the thinking of the Arians, Tertullian, and Valentius.

Keep in mind, the fourth century saw the foundations of Catholic dogma.

LittleLes