Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 i just want to know how come Vatican II thinks its a good idea idea to pray with heretics, and has the church ever permitted this before? thanks sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 Isn't it a good idea to pray with anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 28, 2005 Author Share Posted August 28, 2005 its just a question........gosh i just want to know WHY? im not arguing or debating just questiong why? God bless, sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picchick Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 God hears everyone's prayers. We are sinners yet we ask each other to pray for us. Do you not think that God will hear all people's prayers? There is nothing wrong with prayer. Inviting them to communion when they do not take full part in it is another subject. However, praying with protestants can be a great evagelization tool, it could bring about unity. Be careful on what you say about Vatican II. It is a part of the Catholic Church and is in no way bad or harmful to the Catholic Church. a friendly reminder: Please be charitable and do not call anyone a heretic. Meg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 28 2005, 06:05 PM']its just a question........gosh i just want to know WHY? im not arguing or debating just questiong why? God bless, sam [right][snapback]703007[/snapback][/right] [/quote] If you did not intend to load the question, you would have asked why the Church encourages us to pray with Protestants. I get so sick and tired of people dropping the H-bomb all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Era Might Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 28 2005, 06:52 PM']i just want to know how come Vatican II thinks its a good idea idea to pray with heretics, and has the church ever permitted this before? [right][snapback]702991[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Yes. The ecumenical reform in the Church began before the Second Vatican Council, particularly with Pope Pius XII's "Instruction on the Ecumenical Movement," where limited common prayer was approved: [quote]Although in all these meetings and conferences any communication whatsoever in worship must be avoided, yet the recitation in common of the Lord's Prayer or of some prayer approved by the Catholic Church, is not forbidden for opening or closing the said meetings. [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFECUM.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFECUM.HTM[/url][/quote] "Communication in worship," ie, "Communicatio in sacris," refers most especially to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, which cannot be concelebrated with non-Catholic ministers. A more general "Communicatio in sacris," whereby Catholics and non-Catholics join together in prayer, received gradual approval over the next few decades, although the Second Vatican Council carefully noted just limitations: [quote]Yet worship in common (communicatio in sacris) is not to be considered as a means to be used indiscriminately for the restoration of Christian unity. There are two main principles governing the practice of such common worship: first, the bearing witness to the unity of the Church, and second, the sharing in the means of grace. Witness to the unity of the Church very generally forbids common worship to Christians, but the grace to be had from it sometimes commends this practice. The course to be adopted, with due regard to all the circumstances of time, place, and persons, is to be decided by local episcopal authority, unless otherwise provided for by the Bishops' Conference according to its statutes, or by the Holy See. --Decree on Ecumenism "Unitatis Redintegratio", #8[/quote] The authority of the Bishops to regulate ecumenical endeavors was stressed by Pope Pius XII in the aforementioned document: [quote]As regards the manner and method of proceeding in this work, the Bishops themselves will make regulations as to what is to be done and what is to be avoided, and shall see that these are observed by all. [/quote] The Bishops, particularly the Bishop of Rome, have carefully developed ecumenical guidelines since the Second Vatican Council. We must defer to their Apostolic judgement. Before and after the Council, the Church has permitted limited prayer in common with Christians not in full communion with one another. This must be correctly understood, and must not exceed just limits, but there is nothing un-Catholic about it. Roma locuta est, causa finita est. Edited August 28, 2005 by Era Might Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 28, 2005 Author Share Posted August 28, 2005 heretic is a word that i use i don't see a problem with it i didn't call anyone a heretic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 [quote name='Era Might' date='Aug 28 2005, 06:17 PM']Roma locuta est, causa finita est. [right][snapback]703026[/snapback][/right] [/quote] amen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 28 2005, 06:26 PM']heretic is a word that i use i don't see a problem with it i didn't call anyone a heretic [right][snapback]703035[/snapback][/right] [/quote] You called protestants heritics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argent_paladin Posted August 28, 2005 Share Posted August 28, 2005 I agree with hsmom, be careful with the heretic word. The CCC says "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same." Heresy is usually imputed to someone who was baptized Catholic and then denies a necessary truth of the faith. Obviously the entire first generation of protestants were heretics. And of course anyone who leaves the Church and denies its truths today is a true heretic. However, we don't usually place people who, from no fault of their own, were baptised in a protestant church and raised in that faith. We usually call them separated brethren. This is a significant distinction because there is all the difference in the world between the intentions and attitudes of heretics and the intentions and attitudes of separated brethren. And remember, it must be obstinate denial. All of us probably believe some things that the Church does not teach because we are not all masters of Church doctrine. But if we were to be told and challenged, we would alter our understanding. We must give the same benefit of the doubt to our separated brethren. As to your question, we pray with other Christians because we pray to the same God, follow the same Christ and have the same revelation, the Bible, that tells us to to pray. One could ask a similar question: why do we pray with sinners? Well, because that's all that there are to pray to God. I suppose the rocks could cry out in praise to God. Jesus ate with sinners and, in His Divine Wisdom, designed the universe in such a way that we feeble sinners would have the honor of praying to Him. If David, the adulterer and murderer, can pray such beautiful Psalms to God, why can't protestants? If God loves all of us, would he not want all of us to talk to him and to love him? And does not God want all of us to be one as he is One? At the base of your question is the question "Does God hear the prayers of protestants?". Because, if He does, then what does it matter that we are in the same place or at the same time? God is beyond time and space, he is always and everywhere. If God hears the prayers of protestants, then we always pray with them. But to say that there are sins so great, such as heresy, that God does not hear the prayers of the sinner, is presumptuous and shows an impoverished understanding of the Mercy of God. Yes, God hears the prayers of protestants and heretics, as he hears the prayers of all of us sinners. Of course, there are times when it would be inapproprate to pray with protestants (such as during the greatest prayer, the Mass). But, theologically, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with praying with our separated brethren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avemaria40 Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 i pray with my Protestant friends at Workcamp and they're just as commited Christians as we are. In fact, in the two years leading to my conversion into the Catholic faith, one of my friends, who is not a Catholic, but is a Christian, really inspired me with her own devotion. Also, i find i learn alot from Protestants, and one of the leaders at workcamp said that he learned more about conservative Catholicism because of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Jesus ate with taxcollectors and sinners, considered to be the worst people of the day. In fact, he spent more time with them than the people who had all their ducks in a row. You should never not have compassion or pray with people because of their faith. If they want to pray with you, that should be a good sign. Obviously they are seeking the truth. As for Heretic, it does imply someone who has willfully departed from what they know to be true. So in the case of even first-generation Protestants, many of them didn't think that Catholic church was the truth, because of the corruption and things they saw in it. It would be unfair to call them heretics. Of course, what it comes down to it, it doesn't really matter what you call people. The name you pin on them doesn't change who they are. And since God is the judge, let's just leave it at that. If you call me a heretic, it doesn't change my beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dspen2005 Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 28 2005, 06:52 PM']i just want to know how come Vatican II thinks its a good idea idea to pray with heretics, and has the church ever permitted this before? thanks sam [right][snapback]702991[/snapback][/right] [/quote] is there a particular statement that you are questioning, or concerned about? And as sidenote, the Vatican does not recommend the faithful to pray w/ heretics. Your title for the thread is somewhat misleading. present-day Prots are not heretics, per se. Protestantism is heresy. Primarily the Prots of today are such by birth. Those who come to the knowledge of the TRUTH of the Catholic Faith and still reject it, are heretics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 29, 2005 Author Share Posted August 29, 2005 since protestant baptisms are valid are they not still heretics? and the first generation reformers were material heretics. (I think) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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