qfnol31 Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 POPE NEAR TO AGREEMENT WITH LEFEBVRE 'S FOLLOWERS (AGI) - Albano Laziale, Aug. 29 - The entrance of the garden of the Pope's villa in Castelgandolfo is only two kilometres far from the premises of the San Pio X Brotherhood in the centre of Albano. This morning Mons. Marcel Lefebvre's successor has covered a not very long distance to go to the appointment with Pope Benedict XVI. Mons. Bernard Fellay had asked to use the most remote entrance door to enter the palace. After a few minutes in the car he climbed the stairway outside the Pope's palace and then the excommunicated bishop because he was ordered illicitly, met the new pope. A short way but the voyage has been long. The request to do not show his arrival was due to the opposition that the French bishop will meet in his brotherhood when his followers will know about the meeting with the pope and the reconciliation attempt. Some Lefebvre's followers tried to boycott the meeting using internet in the US. But the meeting finally happened and the Vatican spokesman, Joaquin Navarro Valls said that it took place in an "atmosphere of love for the Church and wish to get to the perfect communion". This is the official statement made by the Holy See. It does not conceal the distance that still remains between the mutual positions and the obstacles that the more traditionalist will try to put. Navarro explained that the Holy See was conscious of difficulties and the parts expressed the will to proceed step by step in reasonable times. Fellay in a note said that he found an agreement with the pope to proceed step by step and in reasonable times to solve problems. Fellay also said that the meeting lasted 35 minutes in a serene atmosphere, even if he added that he remembered to the pope the existing difficulties in a spirit of great love for the Church. The bishop ordained without the Pope's permission, also said that today's hearing was the occasion for the Brotherhood to demonstrate that it was always linked to the Holy See and it would be linked to it for ever. Fellay continued: "We have remembered our serious difficulties, which were already known in a spirit of great love for the Church". The short note closes stressing the idea that Lefebvre's followers believe to be right. "The San Pio X Brotherhood preys in order that the Holy Father can find the force to put an end to the crisis of the Church following Jesus Christ" the note reads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) their are 2 conditions on which mus be met. The excommunication must be decreed invalid and Priests must be able to celebrate the tridentine mass without premission from their bishop. If that dosen't happen their will be no reconcilliation between the SSPX and ROme. Edited August 31, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 not "without permission from the bishop" because that is absurd, every priest can only celebrate mass insofar as he is commissioned by the bishop. that's how the hierarchy works. unless he has an apostolic commission directly from Rome that says he can work outside of all diocesan jurisdiction like St. Lewis de Montford had, but that is unusual. but what you mean to say is that bishops cannot restrict the saying of the mass simply because it is being said by the old 1962 missal. in light of Benedict's previous comments about the plausibility of an ancient plurality of rights being prevalent, this might happen. but the local ordinary must still approve of any mass being said by any approved missal, for the sake of our unity. if there was reunion, I could see williamson splitting... but I don't see him having too many supporters so long as the agreement here is good. lifting the excommunication... we'll see. benedict is surely pained by the excommunication, there may have to be some sort of statement about how it was necessary, how levebrvre should've been obedient et cetera, but there might be some sort of lift on the excom... I don't know that's up to the pope alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 he said he failed when he didn't stop it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 The excommunication is valid, though the Holy Father can lift it. I do believe it will be a little while before a universal indult is granted, though that's what both agreed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 but fellay won't go for it unless the excommunication is declared invalid NOT if it is lifted so i don't think it will happen for a while......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 Don't be too sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 31, 2005 Author Share Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) [url="http://sspx.org/Negotiations/what_catholics_need_to_know.htm"]sspx[/url] read this it will show you that the SSPX will not comprimise until Fellay's demands are met. Edited August 31, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 30 2005, 11:28 PM'][url="http://sspx.org/Negotiations/what_catholics_need_to_know.htm"]sspx[/url] read this it will show you that the SSPX will not comprimise until Fellay's demands are met. [right][snapback]705977[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I have a little more faith than you, it seems, but that may be because I think that as prefect for the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, Cardinal Ratzinger got into some arguments with Cardinal Kasper, and I don't think they agree on Ecumenism at all, at least from what I've read. I think that Pope Benedict is closer to Bishop Fellay than the Bishop actually realizes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popestpiusx Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 EENS, Much has happened since November. Be careful what you bet on. It seems to me (and coming from my SSPX friends as well) that reunion is highly likely so long as both sides play it straight and narrow with these negotiations. My predictions (not in this order): 1)The Holy Father will lift the excommunications (how exactly that is worded I have no thoughts, but I do not think it will effect anything.) Lefebvre's name will be cleared in some fashion. 2)The Tridentine Mass will be freely offered. However, as Al pointed out, the bishop still has jurisdiction over his diocese so this will be tricky. The eventual outcome will be some kind of canonical structure like an apostolic administration, that would protect those priests and faithful who desire the Latin Mass from vindictive bishops. The first step though will be acknowledgement by Pope Benedict that the Trid. Mass was never abrogated and may be said freely (as a general principle) so long as one has permission to say Mass in general from a local ordinary. I also think Rome will demand a sign of faith on the part of Bishop Fellay. In my opinion a good first step would be putting a muzzle on Bishop Williamson (amd anyone who would like to join him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Aug 30 2005, 02:17 AM']Are you sure he thinks the Holy Father is weak? I've seen another translation that uses force instead of strength... [right][snapback]704798[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That is what the report says. So yes, I am sure. And using force in that context is saying the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='popestpiusx' date='Aug 31 2005, 07:23 AM']EENS, Much has happened since November. Be careful what you bet on. It seems to me (and coming from my SSPX friends as well) that reunion is highly likely so long as both sides play it straight and narrow with these negotiations. My predictions (not in this order): 1)The Holy Father will lift the excommunications (how exactly that is worded I have no thoughts, but I do not think it will effect anything.) Lefebvre's name will be cleared in some fashion. 2)The Tridentine Mass will be freely offered. However, as Al pointed out, the bishop still has jurisdiction over his diocese so this will be tricky. The eventual outcome will be some kind of canonical structure like an apostolic administration, that would protect those priests and faithful who desire the Latin Mass from vindictive bishops. The first step though will be acknowledgement by Pope Benedict that the Trid. Mass was never abrogated and may be said freely (as a general principle) so long as one has permission to say Mass in general from a local ordinary. I also think Rome will demand a sign of faith on the part of Bishop Fellay. In my opinion a good first step would be putting a muzzle on Bishop Williamson (amd anyone who would like to join him). [right][snapback]706085[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Why would you lift the excommunication??? The guy disobeyed the Church, and it should stay. What about the vindictive trads who already think they know better than the Magisterium? They need to start with some humility and obedience before the Church does any reconciliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 (edited) Knowing how my brother is about Rome I expect a rift in SSPX if the reunificaion happens. Some will follow and some will not. There will be claims of Fellay selling out. I pray that the reunification happens. EENS, have you read Patrick Madrid's "More Catholic Than the Pope"? Edited August 31, 2005 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='Cam42' date='Aug 31 2005, 09:07 AM']That is what the report says. So yes, I am sure. And using force in that context is saying the same thing. [right][snapback]706127[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I pray that Benedict will have the strength to shepherd about 1 billion souls and put an end to prevelent heresy and heterodoxy in the Church as well. does that mean I think him to be weak? no. that means that I pray he will be strong. you are really taking it out of context... he clearly did not call the pope weak and you are being absurd arguing that he did. he said something perfectly legitimate, a prayer that indeed all Catholics should pray-- that God grant the pope the strength he needs. as for the excommunication lifting-- the orthodox excommunication was lifted-- granted it's been a thousand years but that was still a case of disobedience. while I don't agree with his actions, it was a confusing time and he became desperate; to lift the excommunication wouldn't be to say that he was right, but to say that even though he was wrong we consider him to still have been in communion with the Catholic Faith. to declare it invalid would be to admit his actions to be right-- something the pope will never do because it was disobedience and to approve of such disobedience opens the door for any bishop to create another bishop without the approval of Rome. it would be a nice gesture, and I believe Benedict would be willing to do it, to lift the excommunication granted this is explained correctly in the wording (which I have no doubt it would be). And a universal indult would be really cool : and probably, if the 1962 missal started gaining momentum throughout the church it might positively influence the currently widely abused novus ordo.. we see it everyday that people flock to these indult masses for the reverence, if a universal indult happened and these masses were closer to more people, regular novus ordo parishes might start noticing that people thirst for reverence and start making their masses the reverent things they are supposed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted August 31, 2005 Share Posted August 31, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 31 2005, 09:51 AM']I pray that Benedict will have the strength to shepherd about 1 billion souls and put an end to prevelent heresy and heterodoxy in the Church as well. does that mean I think him to be weak? no. that means that I pray he will be strong. you are really taking it out of context... he clearly did not call the pope weak and you are being absurd arguing that he did. he said something perfectly legitimate, a prayer that indeed all Catholics should pray-- that God grant the pope the strength he needs. as for the excommunication lifting-- the orthodox excommunication was lifted-- granted it's been a thousand years but that was still a case of disobedience. while I don't agree with his actions, it was a confusing time and he became desperate; to lift the excommunication wouldn't be to say that he was right, but to say that even though he was wrong we consider him to still have been in communion with the Catholic Faith. to declare it invalid would be to admit his actions to be right-- something the pope will never do because it was disobedience and to approve of such disobedience opens the door for any bishop to create another bishop without the approval of Rome. it would be a nice gesture, and I believe Benedict would be willing to do it, to lift the excommunication granted this is explained correctly in the wording (which I have no doubt it would be). And a universal indult would be really cool : and probably, if the 1962 missal started gaining momentum throughout the church it might positively influence the currently widely abused novus ordo.. we see it everyday that people flock to these indult masses for the reverence, if a universal indult happened and these masses were closer to more people, regular novus ordo parishes might start noticing that people thirst for reverence and start making their masses the reverent things they are supposed to be. [right][snapback]706153[/snapback][/right] [/quote] All of your speculation is nice and since this is the Open Mic and not the debate board, I will not debate this issue. However, I am simply commenting on what the SSPX said. Simple. I am not taking it out of context, I am responding to a direct quote. Al, please don't start a fight, this is open mic. To assert that I am absurd is not only uncharitable, but also unprovable. The quote is as such.....DIRECT [quote name='Bernard Fellay']"The Society of Saint Pius X prays that the Holy Father can find the strength to put an end to the crisis of the Church in 'restoring all things in Christ'."[/quote] Bishop Fellay is assuming that the SSPX is correct and that the Church is in error. That much is simple and that much proves that it is a disobedient attitude that prevades. The only acceptable answer would have been for bishop Fellay to go into the meeting with biretta (hat) in hand and admit that he is wrong. Then he would need to do WHATEVER is necessary to make it right. The Church is not in error and the Church does NOT need to make any concession. And the Orthodox situation is a totally different scenario, from the beginning. To equate the SSPX and the Orthodox as ultimately the same thing, is not only wrong, but incredibly naive. I assume that you understand that though. Bishop Fellay is in error, the SSPX is in error, they must come home, the Church must not concede...the Church is not wrong, the SSPX is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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