Only God knows who is saved?

[Anastasia13]

[quote name='Phatcatholic']Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.[/quote]
1.How can anyone say that? Not that most of Calvinsism isn't quite messed up, but how can you believe that you cannot know if you are saved? That seems so contrary to scripture.

2.How can you live with a hope of salvation you may never see? Doesn't that ever seem slightly devistating?

Edited August 27, 2005 by Light and Truth

[StColette]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Aug 27 2005, 02:26 PM'][quote name='Phatcatholic']Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.[/quote]
1.How can anyone say that? Not that most of Calvinsism isn't quite messed up, but how can you believe that you cannot know if you are saved? That seems so contrary to scripture.
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Because salvation is a process. One can say they have been Saved in the condition of the following verses:

I Have Been Saved (past event)

[quote]Rom. 8:24 - for in this hope we were saved (but, again, why "hope" if salvation is a certainty?)

Eph. 2:5,8 - for by grace you have been saved through faith.

2 Tim. 1:9 - He saved us and called us through grace and not by virtue of our own works outside of His grace.

Titus 3:5 - He saved us in virtue of His own mercy, and not by our deeds.[/quote]

But we are also being saved. As St. Paul told us "work out salvation with fear and trembling"

I Am Being Saved (present event)[quote]
1 Cor. 1:18 - for the word of the cross is folly to those perishing, but for to us who are being saved, it is the power of God. Salvation is not a one-time event. It is a process of perseverance through faith, hope and love.

2 Cor. 2:15 - for we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved. Salvation is a continual process.

Phil. 2:12 - we are working out our salvation through fear and trembling. Salvation is an ongoing process.

1 Peter 1:9 - you obtain the salvation of your souls as the outcome of your faith. Working out our salvation in fear and trembling is a lifelong process.[/quote]

We will be saved if we believe, are baptized, keep the Commandments, do the Will of God, and endure until the end.

I Will Be Saved (future event)

[quote]Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - again, Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. Salvation is a past, present and future event (not a one-time event at an altar call).

Mark 16:16 – Jesus says whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

Acts 15:11 - we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus.

Rom. 5:9-10 - since we are justified by His blood, we shall be saved.

Rom. 13:11 - salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. How can we be only nearer to something we already have?

1 Cor. 3:15 - he will be saved, but only as through fire.

1 Cor. 5:5 - Paul commands the Church to deliver a man to satan, that he will be saved in the day of the Lord.

2 Tim. 2:11-12 - if we endure, we shall also reign with Him. This requires endurance until the end of our lives.

Heb. 9:28 - Jesus will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him.

James 5:15 - the sacrament of the sick will save the sick man and the Lord will raise him up. [/quote]

Only God can truly know what is in the hearts of man. What we may not see as a failing before God, He may see it as a failing trait. For example, God wishes us to do good works for the people of the world. If we do not do the good deeds like those in Matt 25 then "these shall go into everlasting punishment" This really hits home the fact that without works, faith is dead.

Matt 25:
31 ¶ And when the Son of man shall come in his majesty, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit upon the seat of his majesty.
32 And all nations shall be gathered together before him: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.
34 Then shall the king say to them that shall be on his right hand: Come, ye blessed of my Father, possess you the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry, and you gave me to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me to drink: I was a stranger, and you took me in:
36 Naked, and you covered me: sick, and you visited me: I was in prison, and you came to me.
37 Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry and fed thee: thirsty and gave thee drink?
38 Or when did we see thee a stranger and took thee in? Or naked and covered thee?
39 Or when did we see thee sick or in prison and came to thee?
40 And the king answering shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.
41 Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire, which was prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty and you gave me not to drink.
43 I was a stranger and you took me not in: naked and you covered me not: sick and in prison and you did not visit me.
44 Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to thee?
45 Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen: I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.
46 And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

1 Thess 8-11

8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet that is hope for salvation.
9 For God did not destine us for wrath, but to gain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep we may live together with him.
11 Therefore, encourage one another and build one another up, as indeed you do.

Here St. Paul says "hope for salvation". The hope for salvation has been given to us because of Christ's sacrifice for us.

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But Salvation cannot be assured because

[quote]Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46).

Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21).

"I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4)

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?" (Jer. 17:9).

Definitely a verse that puts forth the idea that Only God may judge the hearts of men.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp"]Assurance of Salvation?[/url]

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[quote]2.How can you live with a hope of salvation you may never see?[/quote]

Because that's what "hope" is. By definition hope is described as the desire of something together with the expectation of obtaining it We are to live in the light of hope and have confidence in the absolute mercy of God.

[quote]It is a truth constantly acted upon in Catholic life and no less explicitly taught, that hope is necessary to salvation. It is necessary first of all as an indispenssible means (necessitate medii) of attaining salvation, so that no one can enter upon eternal bliss without it. Hence even infants, though they cannot have elicited the act, must have had the habit of hope infused in Baptism. Faith is said to be "the substance of things hoped for" (Hebrews, ii, 1), and without it "it is impossible to please God " (ibid ., xi, 6). Obviously, therefore, hope is required for salvation with the same absolute necessity as faith. Moreover, hope is necessary because it is prescribed by law, the natural law which, in the hypothesis that we are destined for a supernatural end, obliges us to use the means suited to that end. Further, it is prescribed by the positive Divine law, as, for instance, in the first Epistle of St. Peter, i, 13: "Trust perfectly in the grace which is offered you in the revelation of Jesus Christ".

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07465b.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07465b.htm[/url]
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[thessalonian]

[quote name='Light and Truth' date='Aug 27 2005, 02:26 PM'][quote name='Phatcatholic']Calvin : The elect are assured of their salvation.
Catholic : Yes, but only God knows who they are.[/quote]
1.How can anyone say that? Not that most of Calvinsism isn't quite messed up, but how can you believe that you cannot know if you are saved? That seems so contrary to scripture.[/quote]

It is not that we don't know who we are. We can know with moral certitude, unless we are decieving ourselves as even Paul acknowledge that he might be. We can know we ARE SAVED. We can see it in the growth in holiness and by the acts of charity we perform (you shall know them by their fruits.). The problem is not knowlege that you are saved but the issue is more knowlege that we will persevere in faith, not fall in to sin, and end up among the damned. But the future is bright as well. For our hope for the future is in Jesus Christ. How can that be contrary to scripture. We know that he pours out his grace on our lives, that we have the infinite grace of his body, blood, soul, and divinity. Further, we know that when we sin grace abounds such that there is not reason not to return to him. But if we persist and reject that grace, eventually we will be cut off from his mercy if we do not turn to him. He gives us many opportunities to root out the sin in our lives. If we do not it is not a problem with our doctrine, or him to whom we have hope in and it will be worse for us than if we had never had the grace at all. Trust in him, take up your cross and follow him. In that there is nothing to fear.


[quote]2.How can you live with a hope of salvation you may never see?  Doesn't that ever seem slightly devistating?
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I don't worry about it as long as my faith and trust is in Christ. There is no reason to consider my fall except in knowing that it is in him and his grace which I stand. As long as you recognize his power working in your life for your salvatoin there is no need for despair.

Eph 3:20
20: Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
21: to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.


Also keep in mind that God wants to save you. No reason reason at all to be disheartened or dispair.

1 tim 2
4: who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

He of course does this through trials and tribulatoins so it is not always pleasant.

Calvinists get heavily in to predestination and have many conundrums and doudts to worry about with that. They get in to all this, well if he doesn't bear fruit he might not really have been saved. Or on the radio station that I listen to sometimes they say, well if you weren't saved with the law and the gospel it wasn't done rite and even though people think they are saved they might not be. So their system has lots of problems they just won't admit to for themselves. It is always problems of another.