Does anyone know the details on...

[turelie]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='967823' date='May 1 2006, 10:58 PM']


Yes! We definitely need to party..

That's perhaps the best part about betrothal, you get to have two big feasts instead of just one. :


[/quote]
i'm glad you see it our way

[Laudate_Dominum]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I kinda want to do the betrothal thing, but don't know how to go about it.

If I could, I'd do it on December 8th.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1087983' date='Oct 9 2006, 10:09 PM']
I kinda want to do the betrothal thing, but don't know how to go about it.

If I could, I'd do it on December 8th.
[/quote]
it's easy (compared to a wedding), just find an appropriate witness and make your promises (either inside or outside the context of a ceremony). If you want a ceremony just find a priest who will do it and the ceremony that you want to use (I recommend the one on page two or tree of this thread). Oh, and if you want to go all out have a nice feast afterwards.

[quote]1. The priest (vested in surplice and white stole) with his assistants (vested in surplice) awaits the couple at the communion table. At hand are the stoup with holy water and the altar missal. As the man and woman come forward with the two witnesses they have chosen, the following antiphon and psalm are sung on the eighth psalm tone:

Antiphon: To the Lord I will tender my promise: in the presence of all His people.

Psalm 126
Unless the house be of the Lord's building, in vain do the builders labor.
Unless the Lord be the guard of the city, 'tis in vain the guard keeps his sentry.
It is futile that you rise before daybreak, to be astir in the midst of darkness,
Ye that eat the bread of hard labor; for He deals bountifully to His beloved while they are sleeping.
Behold, offspring result from God's giving, a fruitful womb the regard of His blessing.
Like arrows in the hand of the warrior, are children begotten of a youthful father.
Happy the man who has filled therewith his quiver; they shall uphold him in contending at the gate with his rival.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
As it was in the beginning, is now, and forever, through endless ages. Amen.

Antiphon: To the Lord I will tender my promise: in the presence of all His people.

2. The priest now addresses them:

Allocution

Beloved of Christ: It is in the dispensation of Divine Providence that you are called to the holy vocation of marriage. For this reason, you present yourselves today before Christ and His Church, before His sacred minister and the devout people of God, to ratify in solemn manner the engagement bespoken between you. At the same time you entreat the blessing of the Church upon your proposal, as well as the earnest supplications of the faithful here present, since you fully realize that what has been inspired and guided by the will of your heavenly Father requires equally His grace to be brought to a happy fulfillment. We are confident that you have given serious and prayerful deliberation to your pledge of wedlock; moreover, that you have sought counsel from the superiors whom God has placed over you. In the time that intervenes, you will prepare for the sacrament of matrimony by a period of virtuous courtship, so that when the happy and blessed day arrives for you to give yourselves irrevocably to each other, you will have laid a sound spiritual foundation for long years of godly prosperity on earth and eventual blessedness together in the life to come. May the union you purpose one day to consummate as man and wife be found worthy to be in all truth a sacramental image and reality of the union of Christ and His beloved Bride, the Church. This grant, thou Who livest and reignest, God, forever and evermore.

R. Amen.

3. The priest now bids the couple to join their right hands, while they repeat after him the following:

The man:
In the name of our Lord, I, N.N., promise that I will one day take thee, N.N., as my wife, according to the ordinances of God and holy Church. I will love thee even as myself. I will keep faith and loyalty to thee, and so in thine necessities aid and comfort thee; which things and all that a man ought to do unto his espoused I promise to do unto thee and to keep by the faith that is in me.

The woman:
In the name of our Lord, I, N.N., in the form and manner wherein thou hast promised thyself unto me, do declare and affirm that I will one day bind and oblige myself unto thee, and will take thee, N.N„ as my husband. And all that thou hast pledged unto me I promise to do and keep unto thee, by the faith that is in me.

4. Then the priest takes the two ends of his stole and in the form of a cross places them over the clasped hands of the couple. Holding the stole in place with his left hand, he says: I bear witness of your solemn proposal and I declare you betrothed. In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. As he pronounces the last words, he sprinkles them with holy water in the form of a cross.

5. Thereupon he blesses the engagement ring:

V. Adjutorium nostrum in nomine Domini.

R. Qui fecit caelum et terram.

V. Domine, exaudi orationem meam.

R. Et clamor meus ad te veniat.

V. Dominus vobiscum.

R. Et cum spiritu tuo.

Oremus: Omnipotent Deus, creator et conservator humani generis, ac largitor aeternae salutis, permitte digneris Spiritum sanctum Paraclitum super hunc annulum. Per Dominum nostrum Jesum Christum, Filium tuum: Qui tecum vivit et regnat in unitate Spiritus Sancti Deus, per omnia saecula saeculorum.

R. Amen.

Et aspergatur aqua benedicta.

V. Our help is in the name of the Lord.

R. Who made heaven and earth.

V. O Lord, hear my prayer.

R. And let my cry come unto thee.

V. The Lord be with you.

R. And with thy spirit.

Let us pray:

O God Almighty, Creator and preserver of the human race, and the Giver of everlasting salvation, deign to allow the Holy Spirit, the Consoler to come with His blessing upon this ring. Through our Lord, Jesus Christ, thy Son, who liveth and reigneth with thee in the unity of the Holy Spirit God, for endless ages.

R. Amen.

The ring is sprinkled with holy water.

6. The man takes the ring and places it first on the index finger of the left hand of the woman, saying: In the name of the Father, (then on the middle finger, adding): and of the Son; (finally placing and leaving it on the ring finger, he concludes): and of the Holy Spirit.

7. The priest opens the missal at the beginning of the Canon, and presents the page imprinted with the crucifixion to be kissed first by the man and then by the woman.

8. If Mass does not follow (or even if Mass is to follow, if he deems it opportune), the priest may read the following passages from Sacred Scripture:

Tobias 7:8
Tobias said: I will not eat nor drink here this day, unless thou first grant me my petition, and promise to give me Sara thy daughter… The angel said to Raguel: Be not afraid to give her to this man, for to him who feareth God, is thy daughter due to be his wife; therefore another could not have her… And Raguel taking the right hand of his daughter, he gave it unto the right hand of Tobias, saying: The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob be with you, and may He join you together, and fulfill His blessing in you. And taking paper they made a writing of the marriage. And afterwards they made merry, blessing God… Then Tobias exhorted the virgin, and said to her: Sara, arise, and let us pray to God today, and tomorrow, and the next day; because for these three nights we are joined to God; and when the third night is over, we will be in our own wedlock. For we are children of saints, and must not be joined together like heathens that know not God. So they both arose, and prayed earnestly both together that health might be given them.

R. Thanks be to God.

John 15:4-12
At that time, Jesus said to His disciples: Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abide in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit; for without me you can do nothing. If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch, and shall wither, and they shall gather him up, and cast him into the fire, and he burneth. If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask whatever you will, and it shall be done unto you. In this is my Father glorified; that you bring forth very much fruit, and become my disciples. As the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you. Abide in my love. If you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; as I also have kept my Father's commandments, and do abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that my joy be in you, and your joy may be filled. This is my commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.

R. Praise be to thee, O Christ!

9. Lastly, the priest extends his hands over the heads of the couple and says:

May God bless your bodies and your souls. May He shed His blessing upon you as He blessed Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. May the hand of the Lord be upon you, may He send His holy Angel to guard you all the days of your life. Amen. Go in peace! [/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1087986' date='Oct 10 2006, 12:14 AM']
it's easy (compared to a wedding), just find an appropriate witness and make your promises (either inside or outside the context of a ceremony). If you want a ceremony just find a priest who will do it and the ceremony that you want to use (I recommend the one on page two or tree of this thread). Oh, and if you want to go all out have a nice feast afterwards.
[/quote]
That's all that's canonically required? Does the witness have to be a clergy member or can the witness be lay for this? Do we have to get certificates from the Church? Signatures? Any sort of certification at all?

[franciscanheart]

are you and jennie going to be betrothed? that's awesome.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1087987' date='Oct 9 2006, 10:18 PM']
That's all that's canonically required? Does the witness have to be a clergy member or can the witness be lay for this? Do we have to get certificates from the Church? Signatures? Any sort of certification at all?
[/quote]
If you are following what the USCCB literature calls "the blessing of an engagement" then you don't need anything. But if you are interested in formal betrothal then pre-1983 stuff comes into play and according to this there is an actual betrothal contract which must be witnessed by a bishop, abbot or in some cases a priest. I'll have to double check but I'm pretty sure that for a priest to witness a betrothal he must be the pastor of your parish.

Actually I'm not so sure.. I think only an ordinary would have the canonical jurisdiction to witness a betrothal contract. This would mean a bishop, vicar general or I suppose a vicar capitular. Your pastor would have pastoral jurisdiction, but if I remember correctly he wouldn't have the canonical jurisdiction to satisfy the old legislation.

The answer is probably on previous pages of this thread.. It's been a while since I've looked into betrothal, but whatever I came up with was confirmed via an email exchange I had with the USCCB.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1087990' date='Oct 10 2006, 12:24 AM']
If you are following what the USCCB literature calls "the blessing of an engagement" then you don't need anything. But if you are interested in formal betrothal then pre-1983 stuff comes into play and according to this there is an actual betrothal contract which must be witnessed by a bishop, abbot or in some cases a priest. I'll have to double check but I'm pretty sure that for a priest to witness a betrothal he must be the pastor of your parish.
[/quote]
The USCCB one would be fine. I've already given her the ring and had it blessed, so it would be kinda silly to have it blessed again and give it to her again.

I'd love to say, "my betrothed," though.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1087990' date='Oct 9 2006, 10:24 PM']
If you are following what the USCCB literature calls "the blessing of an engagement" then you don't need anything. But if you are interested in formal betrothal then pre-1983 stuff comes into play and according to this there is an actual betrothal contract which must be witnessed by a bishop, abbot or in some cases a priest. I'll have to double check but I'm pretty sure that for a priest to witness a betrothal he must be the pastor of your parish.

Actually I'm not so sure.. I think only an ordinary would have the canonical jurisdiction to witness a betrothal contract. This would mean a bishop, vicar general or I suppose a vicar capitular. Your pastor would have pastoral jurisdiction, but if I remember correctly he wouldn't have the canonical jurisdiction to satisfy the old legislation.

The answer is probably on previous pages of this thread.. It's been a while since I've looked into betrothal, but whatever I came up with was confirmed via an email exchange I had with the USCCB.
[/quote]
Wait, I found the answer:

[i]"Except for the 'local ordinary' (the bishop and the vicar-general), only the pastor is officially competent to witness a betrothal contract. Delegation to another priest, even the assistant in the parish, is disallowed in canon law."[/i]


[quote name='Raphael' post='1087993' date='Oct 9 2006, 10:28 PM']
The USCCB one would be fine. I've already given her the ring and had it blessed, so it would be kinda silly to have it blessed again and give it to her again.

I'd love to say, "my betrothed," though.
[/quote]
It's more than that. Engagement, even blessed engagement, is defined as an expressed intention to marry, whereas betrothal is solemn promise to marry which is blessed by the Church and can be described as quasi-sacramental. They are two very different things. The only reason the USCCB issues a blessing for an engagement instead of doing anything with betrothal proper is because the 1983 code indicates that local bishops conferences may deal with the betrothal canons according to the cultural norms of their region and the USCCB chose to ignore them altogether. The problem I have with this is that the history of the decline of betrothal was in my opinion the result of protestant culture followed by the scourge of secularism. I believe that solemn betrothal is something that should be restored regardless of cultural norms.

[Romans1513]

I know a couple who was betrothed officially last December (or was it early January?) Without going into too many of their personal details... He "proposed" by giving her a necklace with an inscription while they were in a church praying together, the betrothal ceremony was two weeks later complete with professional photographer and reception afterwards. They have an absolutely amazing story, I love to hear her tell it. The marriage will be in June.

~Katie

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Romans1513' post='1088000' date='Oct 9 2006, 10:39 PM']
I know a couple who was betrothed officially last December (or was it early January?) Without going into too many of their personal details... He "proposed" by giving her a necklace with an inscription while they were in a church praying together, the betrothal ceremony was two weeks later complete with professional photographer and reception afterwards. They have an absolutely amazing story, I love to hear her tell it. The marriage will be in June.

~Katie
[/quote]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I'm not registered at a parish. I suppose by default, that would be Franciscan, but seeing as I no longer live on Franciscan turf, maybe I could get betrothed in St. Peter's.

[Laudate_Dominum]

The official "Book of Blessings" contains a ceremony called "Blessing of an Engaged
Couple". This ceremony is referenced in the USCCB's marriage prep handbook "Faithful to Each Other Forever " (page 115).

[quote]"There are good reasons for encouraging an integration of the
couple's religious practices and their nuptial engagement. . . .Since
the bestowal of an engagement ring or a formal declaration of the
intention to marry are major moments in our own culture, surrounding
these activities with a simple prayer or solemn blessing could help
bring an added spiritual dimension to those secular events.
The Book of Blessings, which was recently issued by the universal
Church after many years of research . . .and which was adapted further
for use in the United States, provides a blessing for an engagement.
It should be noted that this rite can be carried out by one (or both) of
the parents, as well as by a priest or a deacon. . . . Some have suggested that a blessing of this type be celebrated in a communal or even eucharistic context. The Book of Blessings (no. 198), however, indicates that such a ritual should not be combined with Mass.
. . . For such quasi-private blessings of rings or engagement, it is
still desirable that such a sacramental be done with the rites of the
Church, including Scripture and prayer, not restricted to a mere
mechanical gesture and a few words of benediction. The following
biblical texts could be helpful in that regard, together with a
blessing from the Book of Blessings, adjusted to the circumstances: Hosea
2:21-26; Philippians 2:1-5; 1 Corinthians 13:4-13; John 15:9-12; or
Psalm 145:8-10, 15, 17-18."[/quote]

This is the closest thing to betrothal that the USCCB has come up with, but technically the 1917 betrothal stuff, and the ceremony found in the older "Roman Ritual" is perfectly licit and acceptable. I've checked with the USCCB so this isn't just my opinion.

And I must again stress the difference between an expressed intention to marry (even if blessed) and a solemn canonical promise to marry with a solemn blessing and quasi-sacramental character.

The heart of the response I got from the USCCB Secretariat for Doctrine and Pastoral Practices states:

[i]Canon 1062 remains the current norm for the Latin Church in the United States and, to my knowledge, there are no plans currently underway within the Conference to revise it.[/i]

Canon 1062 of the 1983 code simply carries over the 1917 betrothal canons but also grants authority to local bishop's conferences to revise things as they see fit. There has been one statement in the entire history of the USCCB which has spoken directly to the issue of canon 1062 and all it said is that the bishops have decided to make no modifications.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

This is all very interesting.

So...I'd just have to register at St. Peter's, have Jen take her ring off, let Monsignor go through the rite with us, put the ring back on Jen's finger, and we'd be betrothed?

Edited October 10, 2006 by Raphael

[xTrishaxLynnx]

I just read this from beginning to end (though not the entire description of the actual ceremony - only L_D's summary of it) and I have to say, this thread just exudes awesomeness!