Salvation

[Ellenita]

If there is no guarantee of salvation, then what is the place of the cross and the resurrection in the Catholic faith?

[nikkan_hanil]

I don't know how to answer that, but if the cross has no Jesus on it, it means death to me. :ph34r:

[CatholicAndFanatical]

salvation can be lost due to sin. Yes Jesus Died for our sins, so that sin's MAYBE forgiven. Jesus reconcilied us to God by His death. But we seperate ourselves again from God when we sin.

In revelations it clearly says that 'Nothing Unclean shall Enter Heaven' so we must be spot free, free from any stain of sin.

Most protestants believe in 'Once Saved, Always Saved' theory, and just like the Sola Scriptura belief they have, its totally non scriptural. St. Paul tells us to Persevere until the end, he didnt say that once you have faith in Christ you can do what you want because your saved.

I hope this helps you a little, I'll leave it to the others to explain further. But one thing is for sure, you have salvation through Christ Jesus because of his death...but you can lose it when you sin and dont confess it and repent, and die in that state of sin. This is why Jesus gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation, so that when we do sin, and lose our salvation in Christ because of that sin, there is a way back home.

God is good

CatholicAndFanatical

[Katholikos]

Are you talking about Martin Luther's false Once Saved, Always Saved doctrine? and John Calvin's equally false Perseverance of the Saints?

Salvation is to be hoped for, but it is not assured.

The cross makes salvation possible for all of us, but there are certain requirements we must meet to attain it. One of those is being in a state of grace (i.e., not to have any unrepented, unforgiven mortal sins on our soul) when we die. "...Whoever endures (i.e., keeps his faith and himself undefiled) to the end will be saved" (Mt 10:22).

Since I cannot presume to know what the state of my soul will be at any given moment in the future, I cannot know that I will be free of sin and ready for eternity with God when I die. I intend to be sin-free, but there's no guarantee that I will be. I could fall into sin tomorrow. Or be overcome by temptation five minutes from now. If I die before I repent of the sin and confess, I'll find myself in hell.

One of the sins against the Holy Spirit is presumption of God's mercy and forgiveness; believing in "guaranteed salvation" would be presumptuous.

The cross guarantees salvation to no one.

JMJ Jay (Likos)

[Anna]

The cross guarantees salvation to no one. 

JMJ Jay (Likos)

Except those who've persevered to the end! ;)

[Ellenita]

So the 'once saved, always saved' doctrine originates with Luther? How did he justify it?

It's actually a really hard concept to 'put aside' - I don't know if anyone else who was protestant and then converted to Catholicism has found this difficult?

I completely understand and agree with the concept that sin separates us from God and have never thought 'once saved, always saved' was a free for all that allowed me to sin without any consequence.

[Katholikos]

So the 'once saved, always saved' doctrine originates with Luther? How did he justify it?

It's actually a really hard concept to 'put aside' - I don't know if anyone else who was protestant and then converted to Catholicism has found this difficult?

I completely understand and agree with the concept that sin separates us from God and have never thought 'once saved, always saved' was a free for all that allowed me to sin without any consequence.

OSAS was not taught by Jesus and the Apostles and does not appear in the historical record until the 16th century. It began with Martin Luther's 1521 letter to his cohort in the Deformation, Philip Melanchthon, entitled, "Let Your Sins Be Strong." Here's the heart of it:

"God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner."

Calvin adapted OSAS to his predestination doctrine: Those whom God elects to be saved cannot lose their salvation, no matter what they do. Perseverance of the Saints is the "P" in TULIP, the acronym for 5-point Calvanism. Ah, but you'll only know you were "elected" if you wake up from the dead in heaven. And you'll know you were not "elected" if ... vice versa.

As a Southern Baptist, I was big on OSAS. Smug about it. But it's not a consoling doctrine. OSAS teaches that if one is TRULY saved, he has a lifetime guarantee of salvation regardless of the sins he may commit afterwards. "Being saved" means that when you "accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior" you were sincerely repentant of your past sins and that you were a "true believer." Later, the doubts began to set in. Was I sorry enough, sincere enough, did I "truly believe"? That's why many Evangelicals continue to answer "altar calls" every time a new evangelist comes to town. They worry that maybe their salvation (which is allegedly instantaneous and permanent) didn't "take." So they "get saved" again (and again).

But does it make sense that God suspends the Commandments for the "saved" and sends them to heaven regardless of "committing adultery or murder thousands of times each day," just because they believed in Him at some point in their lives? Scripture says we must "persevere to the end." Paul didn't believe OSAS: "Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" 1 Cor 9:27.

Ellenita, If we're "always saved" and going to heaven anyway, what are the consequences of sin for an OSAS believer?

JMJ Likos, the Happy Catholic

[PedroX]

Ellenita,

As a convert, this was one doctrine that I wrestled with for a long time. It is so completely foreign to everything I had been taught. I don't know exactly how I changed my belief, just that one day everything made sense.

Please read what the catechism says about salvation, and pray to the Blessed Virgin for help in understanding.

peace...

[Ellenita]

Ellenita, if we're "always saved" and going to heaven anyway, what are the consequences of sin for an OSAS believer?

Ah, Katholikos, you always cut to heart of the argument and I find the logic of my protestantism dissolving in front of my eyes! Not fair! :D

OK, this is how I've always understood it, though I confess here that I have not thought it through logically! I repented from my sins and accepted Jesus as my saviour, and was taught by the people who took me through this process that this meant OSAS and the assurance of a place in heaven.

However I am acutely aware that I continue to battle with sin in my life, and I believe that the consequence of that is that it separates me temporarily from God, from His love, from knowing Him more - not that He moves away from me, but that I move myself away from Him. I know with every fibre of my being that I am most fulfilled when I am following His path rather than going my own sinful way and that there are practical consequences when I committ sin which can and do have a direct impact on my life here on earth.

I am appalled to imagine that anyone would think that OSAS means that you can sin without impunity such as suggested by Luther's letter which would appear to encourage people to sin even more!

It's just really difficult to come to terms with the concept that having accepted Jesus as your saviour, you might not then make it to heaven, but spend the rest of eternity cut off from God. It is completely the opposite to what I have understood the Christian message to be!

PedroX, I have bought a copy of the catechism and will most certainly read it when it arrives! :)