Tradition In Churches

[Katholikos]

Likos,

Does the GIRM differ from place to place, because I'm reasonably sure I read that in Europe the norm was to stand.  That was the basis for my previous post.  Its not a big deal, but I'm just terribly curious.

peace...

Pedro, every country has its own council of bishops like the USCCB and its own General Instructions for the Roman Missal (GIRM). Each and every GIRM (or whatever it may be called in each country) is approved by Rome. Some variations are allowed for cultural reasons. But nobody messes with the text of the Mass. The group that translated the Roman Missal for the U.S. has been under fire from Rome (called the ICEL, I think).

Just as with civil laws, what is permitted in one country may not be allowed in another. The law of the Church in the U.S. is that we are to kneel at certain prescribed times, as stated in the GIRM. It is the law of the Church, just as is canon law. It should be obeyed.

I've been in ten European countries. I haunted the Churches in every one of them. I did not see people standing during the consecration. They were kneeling on the bare concrete floor if necessary, or on unpadded kneelers, but they were kneeling. I don't know what the Church law is for each of those countries, but I know the people knelt, painful as it was at times to do so.

Ave Cor Mariae, Likos

[Katholikos]

The US Missal, friend, recommends standing.

Seatbelt, provide your documentation, please.

I provided documentation from the 2003 GIRM that says we must KNEEL. This had an effective date a couple of weeks ago -- don't recall the pecise date. It has been under discussion for months and months and months.

JMJ Likos

[marielapin]

Ok Pedro, got some info for you:

found on www.saint-mike.org/apologetics/qa/Answers/ Apol_Liturgy/l010628Dana.html

Dear Mrs Weissman,

I'm afraid I have no idea how likely Rome is to approve this: but I wish to reassure you that Rome likes kneeling. Go to http://www.adoremus.org/12-0101cdw-kneel.html Here you will see an American bishop asking about the American practice of kneeling after the Agnus Dei... a practice not found in the missal. Cardinal Jorge Arturo Medina Estévez, prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments, responds that the missal does NOT intend to prohibit kneeling at this time, or any time.

Another statement from Rome (and I'm sorry, but I can't remember where) said that the official AMERICAN practice of kneeling for the ENTIRE canon (rather than just the consecration) is to be retained, with praise.

But, the question here is will INDIVIDUAL bishops be granted permission to determine postures, history gives us the answer -- Rome has maintained the universal law on kneeling and has always resisted changing it.

In Europe, they do not kneel as much as we do, but they do kneel. They kneel only for the consecration, (which is required by universal law), where as in the United States we kneel for the entire Canon, (which was approved by Rome upon request of the American bishops), both practices are according to current approved rules.

I suspect that what you have read has a liberal slant that is pushing an agenda, by means of distorting the truth. There are SOME parishes in Europe that do not follow the GIRM faithfully, and your article is probably referring only to these, in a lame attempt to show that NOBODY kneels in Europe.

If I may make a spiritual comment, PLEASE do not "give up". that is EXACTLY what the devil is trying to get us to do. If you must, switch parishes, and if you can't find a holy, orthodox one, then it is better to attend an irreverent Mass than none at all. I am certain that being patient with liturgical innovators is pleasing to God, especially if there is nothing that can be done. God knows what is in your heart and how you want to worship Him. Use this to become more holy. Please don't give up.

Mr. Slavek

Liturgical Abuses: What Can the Average Catholic Do?

In spite of the clear mandates of the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal, it appears that some dioceses will persist in trying to push through their favorite liturgical experiments (see Adoremus report). An example is the Diocese of Cleveland in which at least one report from a local Catholic indicates that some clergy are even "inviting" [read: pressuring] parishioners to stand during the Consecration. I myself witnessed this practice on more than one occasion at a Cleveland church in the recent past. In addition, the Diocese itself has announced in the local newspaper various changes, with the proviso that most are not "required" (see Sept. 28, 2003, story from Cleveland's Plain Dealer newspaper). In the same newspaper story, the bishop of Cleveland goes so far as to equate participation in liturgical experimentation as a sign of love of neighbor in order to pressure reluctant Catholics. In my view, this is an obvious example of liturgical revisionists who refuse to take no for an answer. But what can scandalized and beleaguered Catholics do in such strange and dysfunctional situations?

The first step is not to conform. The clear general rule is that no one should stand during the Consecration. Any exceptions are occasional in nature. The U.S. bishops have clearly stated that in the U.S. the proper posture during the Consecration is kneeling:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.

General Instruction of the Roman Missal, section 43 (emphasis added) (see U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops; scroll down to section 43).

Those who are able should make this clear to any clergy who issue a general invitation to stand during the Consecration. In addition, a letter should be sent through regular snail mail to the local bishop protesting against this blatant disobedience. You should attach a highlighted copy of the above excerpt from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal citing the bishops' conference website as the source.

There should also be a letter to the local diocesan newspaper and even to the local secular newspaper to make clear to other Catholics that they are not alone in being troubled by liturgical experimentation. Letters to the editor serve as a signal to fellow Catholics that others are in solidarity with them and also communicate important information. Great pains should be taken that any information is fully accurate. Groups like Adoremus can answer many questions prior to penning a letter (see Adoremus section on posture). I include the secular press because the revisionists have themselves turned to the secular press. In Cleveland, the new liturgical changes were reported at length in the local daily secular newspaper, as shown in one of the links above.

If a parish persists in liturgical disobedience and experimentation, then a parishioner has the option of informing the pastor in writing that he or she is leaving for another parish because of this experimentation. By doing this, you attach a real cost or consequence to the dysfunctional behavior, and, at the same time, bring new support to parishes and priests who do respect the liturgy. You also benefit from reverent liturgy, and ensure that your children become accustomed to expecting reverent liturgy in future years.

So there are in sum five simple steps:

1. Inform yourself by seeking authoritative advice as to what is inDouche required by the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal. For example, the new Instruction calls for bowing in reverence before receiving Communion. Such required changes should be obeyed.

2. Do not conform to liturgical experimentation not required by the new General Instruction. The Mass is not infinitely malleable.

3. Send to your bishop a typewritten letter respectfully but firmly asking him to make clear his position on the liturgical practice at issue. The shorter the letter the better. Attach copies of any documentation, appropriately highlighted, that you have been able to find. Keep a copy of your letter for your files. Design your letter for reading by a very busy person. Even if the bishop is behind the push for liturgical experimentation, as is unfortunately the case in Cleveland, your respectful disagreement should be on record.

4. Write to your local diocesan newspaper, making clear the problem at hand.

5. Write to your daily secular newspaper, making clear to all that Catholics are troubled by liturgical experimentation.

And, of course, in all these activities pray for all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and pray that you may advance the truth of God and not your own truth. You should also pray for prudence and common sense: not every slight deviation or imperfection is a worthy subject of action. Pick your battles carefully, and focus on the big issues. In this way, we can create a new reality in response to liturgical experimentation, the new reality of strong, public, and articulate defense of the liturgy. Such a defense has a good chance of exposing the woolly and patronizing thinking behind liturgical experimentation. This new reality of publicly defending the liturgy is envisioned by Vatican II which viewed those laity who obey and are guided by the official teachings of the Church as possessing the sense of the faithful and as called to a prophetic mission (see Lumen Gentium, 12). Contrary to the patronizing remarks of the bishop of Cleveland who equates participation in his experiments as a sign of love for our neighbors, preserving reverence in the liturgy is a great work of mercy that will truly benefit our neighbors and future generations.

[p0lar_bear]

Regarding the General Instruction of the Roman Missal:

The version issued by Rome provided:

[The faithful] should kneel at the consecration, except when prevented by reasons of health, lack of space, the number of people present, or some other good reason. However, those who do not kneel at the consecration ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration.....Where it is the custom that the people remain kneeling from the end of the Sanctus  until the end of the Eucharistic Prayer, this is laudably retained (no. 43, unofficial translation from the Latin).

As you can see, kneeling is required during the consecration except for the provided circumstances. What is different in the US is kneeling throughout the entire Eucharistic Prayer and again after the Agnus Dei.

The GIRM with adaptations for the US states:

In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise (no. 43, official translation available at www.usccb.org).

Regarding the placement of the tabernacle, the universal GIRM states:

Moreover, the tabernacle should be place, according to the judgement of the diocesan Bishop:

a. either in the sanctuary, apart from the altar of celebration, in the most suitable form and place, not excluding an old altar which is no longer used for celebration;

b. or even in another chapel suitable for adoration and the private prayer of the faithful, and which is integrally connected with the church and is conspicuous to the faithful (no. 315, unofficial translation, emphasis added).

The US adaptations repeat this:

Consequently, it is preferable that the tabernacle be located, according to the judgment of the Diocesan Bishop,

a. Either in the sanctuary, apart from the altar of celebration, in a form and place more appropriate, not excluding on an old altar no longer used for celebration (cf. above, no. 303);

b. Or even in some chapel suitable for the faithful's private adoration and prayer and which is organically connected to the church and readily visible to the Christian faithful (no. 315, official translation).

As you can see, having the tabernacle in an organically connected chapel rather than in the main body of the church is allowed at the discretion of the Bishop.

[PedroX]

Marielapin, Likos, and Polar Bear,

Thanks so much for clearing this up. The section that begins "In the dioceses of the United States..." is what stuck in my mind, and I couldn't remember the details. I just mixed up what part of the mass they were referring to. Thanks again. These things are important. Ignorance is not bliss, and true worship is.

peace...

[Faithful heart]

I do agree that when it comes to the parishiners, you should just pray for them and try not to be bothered. As for women who breast feed, I feel the baby has every right to be in Church, and if the baby is hungry it has to eat. As long as the mother was being tasteful about it. I try not to focus on the people around me. There is one EM who will not bow during the Concecration, I get mad and then I say a prayer on her behalf.

[Paladin D]

In the old Parish I used to go to, when the wafer was to be consecrated, everyone kneeled. The EMs and we the Altar Servers kneeled as well. Including when he consumed the wafer.

[FX2]

at the Seminary in the same town as FX2's notorious church the seminarians stand during the consecration and gather aroudn teh altar and its all big ugly mess

They used to do that at my church too. The priest actually invited people up to stand around the altar during concecration.

The alter servers and readers (most of them) dont kneel during the concecration, nor is there really a place for them to kneel. Most of the altar servers at our church are older people, only about 25% of them are children, so i can understand kneel on hard ground.

But anyway, thanks for all of your replys. Maybe my mom will allow me to go to church on my own now. I hate seperating from my family, but i feel like it is not right for me to be angry at church every time i go.