FX2 Posted November 23, 2003 Share Posted November 23, 2003 im not sure if i should put this thread in debate or open mic, but this makes me so angy..My parents and Grandma belong to this church and i find it very hard to tolerate. I concider it a very liberal church. First the Eucharist and Tabernacle are off in a little chapel to the side (which the whole congregation cant see if they are stitting in the back) and at times, they close off the chapel from the main part of the church so its not at all visible during the mass! Another thing, is that the priest that just left was the first priest to ask the whole congregation to kneel during the concecration. Even now, people still stand (i really would like to ask them "would you please kneel, you are blocking my view of the body of Christ") And none of them kneel during the lamb of God. They say its a traditon of their Church not to kneel, but i highly disagree with this. Also, i dont know if this is wrong, and it kinda gets me angry, but this is the only church that i have ever seen do it, but the congregation stands up during the Amen, not after. Its almost like some kinda revival thing u see on tv, or at least thats how i see it. Those are the two main things that get me. There are other little things that sometimes get on my nerves. Not to be tottally bashing this church, there are alot of good things they do. They have a food bank and a good sence of community there. Alot of people like to bring their kids there, because it seems more of a family freindly church (even though they dont have a crying room, and babies cry and i have even seen a lady breast feeding in a pew during consecration.) so my qustion is should i have a problem with these things, or am i getting angry over things that are not a problem? Your brother in Christ ~Fx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Get upset over the Tabernacle being moved b/c that is the center of the Universal Church and it makes a statement when Christ is not even in the Church building anymore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary's Knight, La Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 You are very justified in your anger and I think that perhaps that congregation does need a calling back to a more traditional reverence (sp?) for Christ's Body and Blood. The new GIRM may help with this and if not your bishop or administrator for the diocese may want to know about such things. He would be in a much better position to deal with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Actually, I believe that US churches have an indult to kneel during the consecration, but that the normal posture is standing. I may be wrong on this, but you should check the GIRM. I'm not sure its the big deal that you think it is. Church design is a constant and on going problem. I'm not sure that there is anything you can do about the tabernacle, if the church was built in the last 30 years, it probably didn't have one put in the right place. peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Gus Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Standing is fine, if I recall correctly, but what really gets me, I mean really irks me, I mean, what really TEARS MY NIGHTIE is when people sit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seminarian Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 (edited) Sadly I have heard of other seminaries having their seminarians stand during the consecration and Lamb of God, and sadly there is nothing official from Rome that says one has to stand or kneel during the consecration, although some bishops have made it clear in their dioceses as to what they feel should be done in there parishes. It is the call of the individual pastor in terms of the kneeling and the tabernacle location no one else. And again the tabernacle should be front and center always out of respect for Christ, so that the people know where he is at all times in the Blessed Sacrament. However, as before the GERM does not say that the tabernacle has to be front and center. I was at a Benedictine chapel this past summer and the tabernacle was in a room behind the chapel and behind the sacristy, so no one really knew where it was except the priests. It is up to the pastor and his best judgement as to where to put the tabernacle and what to have the people do at mass. He will have to give an account before God for what he has done. Is it a liberal parish? NO, it is a parish whose pastor might be liberal or whose pastor might be using the lack of universal rules from Rome as an excuse to do as he pleases. I would not worry about it, as it the pastor who is the only who can change things around, I would be more concerned to make sure the mass is said properly and that the sacraments are done properly. Remember, Christ gave man the sacrament of the Eucharist, not the liturgy, not the tabernacle, not how things are to be during the liturgy those were all inventions of man...however, at the same time if Christ is not given the true respect he deserves for giving us such a wonderful gift, problems can arise. Edited November 24, 2003 by Seminarian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 (edited) A summary of the requirements of the 2003 GIRM, from http://www.diocesetucson.org/girm/html 12. Beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, and after the Agnus Dei, the congregation kneels. 13. "Reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reasons" are stated as reasons why on occasion people might not kneel at prescribed moments of the liturgy 2002 GIRM 43. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. P.S. This is not new. The previous GIRM had the same rules for kneeling. JMJ Likos Edited November 24, 2003 by Katholikos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Sadly I have heard of other seminaries having their seminarians stand during the consecration and Lamb of God, and sadly there is nothing official from Rome that says one has to stand or kneel during the consecration, although some bishops have made it clear in their dioceses as to what they feel should be done in there parishes. It is the call of the individual pastor in terms of the kneeling and the tabernacle location no one else. And again the tabernacle should be front and center always out of respect for Christ, so that the people know where he is at all times in the Blessed Sacrament. However, as before the GERM does not say that the tabernacle has to be front and center. I was at a Benedictine chapel this past summer and the tabernacle was in a room behind the chapel and behind the sacristy, so no one really knew where it was except the priests. It is up to the pastor and his best judgement as to where to put the tabernacle and what to have the people do at mass. He will have to give an account before God for what he has done. Is it a liberal parish? NO, it is a parish whose pastor might be liberal or whose pastor might be using the lack of universal rules from Rome as an excuse to do as he pleases. I would not worry about it, as it the pastor who is the only who can change things around, I would be more concerned to make sure the mass is said properly and that the sacraments are done properly. Remember, Christ gave man the sacrament of the Eucharist, not the liturgy, not the tabernacle, not how things are to be during the liturgy those were all inventions of man...however, at the same time if Christ is not given the true respect he deserves for giving us such a wonderful gift, problems can arise. Are the 2003 General Instruction for the Roman Missal, proposed by the American bishops and approved by Rome, merely suggestions? JMJ Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 I know that some Basilicas have separate chapels for the Tabernacle. Not sure how this helps the conversation any, but I think it is a permissable thing. Don't quote me on it, I haven't checked any sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Yes, some basilicas have perpetual adoration chapels, where our Lord is worshipped day and night, and they have tabernacles in those "chapels." However, some parishes disregard the tabernacle, and do not place it in a location where it will receive reverence and honor. I think it may have been Likos who once posted that he had seen a tabernacle in one parish stored in a broom closet, along with the cleaning supplies, a broom propped up against it!!! Love is not loved. However, breastfeeding an infant during consecration is not irreverent. The mother can adore Our Lord while keeping her baby quiet during this solemn time. I saw some abuses at Mass today. Made me sad. Our Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion go up on the altar and stand around while the priest consumes the Host. A lady often comes with some retarded adults, and today she took them up in the Communion line. Some must not have been Catholic, and she didn't allow them to receive the Host, but she insisted that the Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion bestow blessings upon each one of them. I cringed in sorrow. He was quite demonstrative, making signs of the cross over them and laying hands on them, etc. But I don't think he would've done it, if the parishoner hadn't instructed him to do so. (His wife was standing next to him, offering the chalice...Is that ok?) This, too me, was highly unusual. I've never noticed the extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion bestowing blessings in lieu of Communion in the past. But I hate it when they stand around the altar while the priest consumes Holy Communion. They go right up and stand immediately after the Agnus Dei, so they do not kneel as instructed. Also, before and after Mass, Extraordinary Ministers went into the tabernacle to remove Hosts (to visit the sick)...I wondered if they are permitted to do that? One never even genuflected or bowed. This is why I usually keep my head down in church... Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLAZEr Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Sadly I have heard of other seminaries having their seminarians stand during the consecration and Lamb of God, and sadly there is nothing official from Rome that says one has to stand or kneel during the consecration, although some bishops have made it clear in their dioceses as to what they feel should be done in there parishes. It is the call of the individual pastor in terms of the kneeling and the tabernacle location no one else. And again the tabernacle should be front and center always out of respect for Christ, so that the people know where he is at all times in the Blessed Sacrament. However, as before the GERM does not say that the tabernacle has to be front and center. I was at a Benedictine chapel this past summer and the tabernacle was in a room behind the chapel and behind the sacristy, so no one really knew where it was except the priests. It is up to the pastor and his best judgement as to where to put the tabernacle and what to have the people do at mass. He will have to give an account before God for what he has done. Is it a liberal parish? NO, it is a parish whose pastor might be liberal or whose pastor might be using the lack of universal rules from Rome as an excuse to do as he pleases. I would not worry about it, as it the pastor who is the only who can change things around, I would be more concerned to make sure the mass is said properly and that the sacraments are done properly. Remember, Christ gave man the sacrament of the Eucharist, not the liturgy, not the tabernacle, not how things are to be during the liturgy those were all inventions of man...however, at the same time if Christ is not given the true respect he deserves for giving us such a wonderful gift, problems can arise. at the Seminary in the same town as FX2's notorious church the seminarians stand during the consecration and gather aroudn teh altar and its all big ugly mess. It's why I left that order. Pray that the bishop of this diocese, who will remain nameless, wakes up from his sinful lethargy. (BTW, the seminary has a new rector, so I'm not sure if they still do this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Likos, Does the GIRM differ from place to place, because I'm reasonably sure I read that in Europe the norm was to stand. That was the basis for my previous post. Its not a big deal, but I'm just terribly curious. peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 Likos, Does the GIRM differ from place to place, because I'm reasonably sure I read that in Europe the norm was to stand. That was the basis for my previous post. Its not a big deal, but I'm just terribly curious. peace... Pedro, I think I might know what you are talking about. I know that in Europe, they kneel during the Consecration, but they stand after the Agnus Dei. I wish I knew a source for that information, I'll see if I can find one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seatbelt Blue Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 A summary of the requirements of the 2003 GIRM, from http://www.diocesetucson.org/girm/html 12. Beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, and after the Agnus Dei, the congregation kneels. 13. "Reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reasons" are stated as reasons why on occasion people might not kneel at prescribed moments of the liturgy 2002 GIRM 43. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. P.S. This is not new. The previous GIRM had the same rules for kneeling. JMJ Likos The US Missal, friend, recommends standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seatbelt Blue Posted November 24, 2003 Share Posted November 24, 2003 This is why I usually keep my head down in church... Keep your head UP except in reverence! Don't bow it to hide your face, or to keep these things from your eyes. Raise your head, celebrate the Lord! Don't concern yourself with the practices of others. Pray for them, but do not let them keep your head low. Hide? Why hide? You have Christ! There are you happy. There you have joy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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