Inquisition

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Winchester' date='Aug 28 2005, 08:07 PM']Little les,

I find your response surprisingly moderate. I find the quote amusing. Nine million is not close to a credible number, though some proffer it, it's not an actual estimate that any sane or educated person uses.

I[/quote]

RESPONSE:

I would tend to agree with you regarding the number of those actually put to death during the German inquisition. I would agree that the nine million number is an unrealistic exageration and at the high end of the spectrum.

The Wikipedia encyclopedia is probably more realistic in its estimate:

"Modern historians have shown that the victims of the witchhunt were not always female, though they were in the majority and misogyny was an important part of the forces behind it. In Iceland, for example, 80% of those accused were men. Generally accepted figures amongst historians today range from Levack at around 60,000 to Hutton at around 40,000."

However, we are talking of only one of a number of Catholic Inquisitions.

For excample, generaly only the Spanish Inquisition is addressed, and yet again from Wikipedia:

"Numbers are difficult to establish with accuracy for the Spanish Inquistion, and there is an ongoing debate between recent historical research supported by the Catholic Church, which holds that the previously accepted death toll of the Inquisition is greatly exaggerated, and other historians, who claim that up to hundreds of thousands, or even more, might have been killed."

And in other Inquisitions:

"The Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229) was a brutal 20-year military campaign initiated by the Roman Catholic Church to eliminate the religion practiced by the Cathars of Languedoc, which the Roman Catholic hierarchy considered heretical. It is historically significant for a number of reasons: the violence inflicted was extreme even by medieval standards..."

So total numbers overall are hard to establish and omit, for example, those who died in prison.

LittleLes

[LittleLes]

Many regarded witches as delusional persons, not actual heretics. I believe Aquinas dismissed out of hand the claims of those who reported riding broomsticks and mating with the Devil, which were commonely accepted in non-Catholic inquisitions such as carried on in Germany.

RESPONSE:

No. The German Inqusition was Catholic, not nonCatholic. Shall we avoid apologetic "lets pretend"?

And the Mallem Maleficarum continued to be published and was considered authentic Catholic guidance right up until 1928.

From the introduction to this 1928 edition, there is this:

"Witches were the bane of all social order; they injured not only persons but property. They were, in fact, as has previously been emphasized, the active members of a vast revolutionary body, a conspiracy against civilization. Any other save the most thorough measures must have been unavailing; worse, they must have but fanned the flame."

Montague Summers.

In Festo Expectationis B.M.V.
1927.


It's on line in its entirety, if you care to look up Mallus Maleficarum.

LittleLes

[Mikhail]

[quote[Unless they are of the mindset that would also deny the occurrence of the Holocaust, reality-oriented historians will not try to deny the occurrence of Inquisition, especially that conducted against the midwives of German in the 15th century. There are just too many historical writings by those involved attesting to its reality, some of which I have cited.
Pretending that there are two different versions is similar to arguing that there are really two versions about the treatment of the Jews by the Nazi. History is pretty clear on what happened there also.
LittleLes [/quote]

Littleles,

If you knew anything about the study of history, you would know that nothing is ever black and white. Even the jews that died is uncertain, ranging anywhere from 200,000 to 10 million (although most believe it was in the area of 6 million). As more time passes, the details become even more foggy. The inquisition existed, yes, but it was not as bad as some historians would have you believe. It is also worse than others would have you believe. If you think that history is cut and dry, you are no historian.

[Winchester]

The witch craze in Europe was not Catholic. What years were inquisitional courts set up in Germany? I was speaking of those concerned in the main with witchcraft, which was simply not that great of a worry in comparison with heretical beliefs.

The Cathars threatened the fabric of society with their notion of not taking oaths. Of course response was strong, but then again, one informed of the Cather religion realizes the zealousness with which they pursued their religion. Fear drove much of that war.

It remains that Aquinas thought the notions silly, and many held opinions of the like.

Iceland? What years? Are we saying the Catholic Church operated an inquisition in Iceland?

[Winchester]

Wikipedia, while fun and informative, is not a primary nor secondary source. It is, at best, tertiary and certainly not to be trusted by itself.

The same can be said of many printed books, and wonder of wonders if I put Catholic written books in there as well.

No religion has the market cornered on propaganda.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Aug 28 2005, 10:56 PM']
The inquisition existed, yes, but it was not as bad as some historians would have you believe. It is also worse than others would have you believe.[/quote]

And Aloyious's

the Inquisition...

when people get into sources from the time period itself, it becomes clearer that the inquisition was not all that bad.

most of the bad stuff you hear about the inquisition originates in protestant sources centuries later who were spreading propaganda because they were loosing battles against Catholic nations.

RESPONSE:


Are both of you serious? The Inquisition was not all that bad?

Following that reasoning the holocaust wasn't all that bad either.

Littleles