Inquisition

[Quietfire]

[quote]The Spanish Inquisition kept very good records and these are now being sifted through by historians. They paint a very different picture of sentencing patterns to traditional historians. Geoffrey Parker analysed 49,000 trial records between 1540 and 1700, representing one third of the total, and found 776 executions took place. This suggests a total of about 2,000 in the period reviewed. Earlier records are less well preserved but do not support the picture of a bloodbath usually painted. Henry Kamen (p. 60) does not believe more than a thousand executions took place in the earlier period. However, he points out that the Inquisitors activities were heavily slanted towards Jewish and Moslem communities who would have suffered far more than most from their activities. Recent work, sponsored by the Catholic Church, also points to a significantly lower death toll. Professor Agostino Borromeo, a historian of Catholicism at the Sapienza University in Rome, writes that about 125,000 people were tried by church tribunals as suspected heretics in Spain. Of these, about 1,200 - 2,000 were actually executed, although more killings were performed by non-church tribunals.[/quote]

This info is from Wikipedia, which I dont think is pro-Catholic.
I honestly think many people dont understand the Inquisitions at all, and view them as another Holocaust.
In order to study history, you need to get into it. A true historian will attempt to put themselves in that era. To understand the dynamics of the peoples of the time. To try and figure out the mindset of the people of a particular era.
Many people during the Inquisition wilfully stepped foward to be investigated, after being accused(usually by an enemy of that person) so that they could clear their name.
This makes perfect sense if you think about it. There is a massive Inquisition going on, someone who dislikes you very much has accused you of being part of a cult that not only denies Christ, but also claims that you and your 'brethren' refuse to cooperate with God in creating new life and wholeheartily believe in suicide. In essence, you believe that you are also a god.
Now this may seem like nothing to you. But keep in mind that you are here, they were there. Also, I left out alot of the wierder details and the extent of those above for charities sake.

As far as the Spanish Inquisition. Jews and Muslims had 'converted' to Christianity (remember there was only one).
They 'converted', to obtain positions within the Church. All the while still secretly practicing their original faith. Once it became known that there were many within the Church who did not hold to her truths, then it became obvious that they needed to go.
In simpler terms, you dont get a job at a car factory and then attempt to do nothing but build washing machines. Its a mockery.

Oh, dont worry theres more than that. That is why it is suggested that you truly study it.
Even before I studied the Church I had done some reading on it and I still cant see how the Church is to blame.

If we simply judge the actions of peoples a thousand years ago with our own 21st century mindset, then you may as well consider anyone born before the invention of motorcars as barbaric.

Pax

Edited August 28, 2005 by Quietfire

[LittleLes]

There are those who were there.
And then there are those who studied it centuries later. Time makes all the difference.

RESPONSE:

The best record would be the writings of those who were there. In the case of the Malleus Malleficarum (1486), we have the writings of the two principals.

But actually there were three principles. The Pope set up and approved the whole thing.

That would be Pope Innocent VIII's Summis desiderantes (1484), the so called "Witches Bull."

"And, for the greater sureness, extending the said letter and deputation to the provinces, cities, dioceses, territories, places, persons, and crimes aforesaid, we grant to the said inquisitors that they or either of them joining with them our beloved son Johannes Gremper, cleric of the diocese of Coonstance, master of arts, their present notary, or any other notary public who by them or by either of them shall have been temporarily delegated in the provinces, cities, dioceses, territories, and places aforesaid, may exercise against all persons, of whatsoever condition and rank, the said office of inquisition, correcting, imprisoning, punishing and chastising, according to their deserts, those persons whom they shall find guilty as aforesaid. "

Chastising means torturing.

LittleLes

[LittleLes]

If we simply judge the actions of peoples a thousand years ago with our own 21st century mindset, then you may as well consider anyone born before the invention of motorcars as barbaric.

Pax


RESPONSE:

Obviously it was only 500 years ago. And the Holocaust was almost 100 years ago.

I think most would realize that both were barbaric and inexcusable.

I wonder if apologists will try to downplay the holocoust any time soon?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Aug 28 2005, 06:49 AM']Ok, so if I follow your train of thought then I am at an impass.
There is no Protestant point of view in reference to the Inquisition.
Protestant p.o.v. happened centuries later and of course would be an opposition to that of the Church anyway.

So your theory on finding all sources is hampered extensively.

There are those who were there.
And then there are those who studied it centuries later.  Time makes all the difference.
I am curious what will be said about 9-11, twenty, thirty, even a century later.

Pax
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RESPONSE:

Do you suppose that since these events happened in the 15th century and the Portestant Reformation in the 16th century, the fact that there weren't any Portestants yet to write about the Inquisition(s) was the reason for the lack of Protestant writings for that period?.

[Quietfire]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 28 2005, 08:46 AM']If we simply judge the actions of peoples a thousand years ago with our own 21st century mindset, then you may as well consider anyone born before the invention of motorcars as barbaric.

Pax
RESPONSE:

Obviously it was only  500  years ago. And the Holocaust was almost 100 years ago.

I think most would realize that both were barbaric and inexcusable.

I wonder if apologists will try to downplay the holocoust any time soon?
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I am not downplaying anything.
And yes, the S.I. may have ended 500 years ago, but there still werent cars then.
The Holocaust was not 'almost' 100 years ago, it ended 53 years ago.
It was designed to elimate Jews out of hatred. As well as Poles. And that was the just the beginning in Hilters mind.
DO NOT CONFUSE THE INQUISITION WITH THE HOLOCAUST.
There is no commonality between them and only shows that you are grabbing at straws.

The S.I. was designed to remove Jews and Muslims from places of influence WITHIN the Church.
At that time the purity of the Catholic Faith in Spain was in great danger from the numerous Marranos and Moriscos, who, for material considerations, became sham converts from Judaism and Mohammedanism to Christianity.
It was the Marranos especially who had, by then, great wealth and power within the Church. There goal was to Judiaze the Church from within.

Barbaric? Compared to what? Today?
Obviously you have never been (falsely) accused of a crime, taken to a police station, put in a tiny room and physcologically been torn apart.
What is the difference?
One carries physical scars (to boot)
One carries them within.
Obviously, you still study history with a 21st century mindset.

Im not getting into detail here. It is too far involved and would require too much time. That is why I asked that studying must be done with an open mind.
Littleles,
It is obvious that you are against everything and anything Christian.
Without accusing, I sense that same Marrano attitude in you that was the reason for the S.I.

There is no answer that will satisfy you here and therefore a waste of time.

Pax.

Edited August 28, 2005 by Quietfire

[Quietfire]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 28 2005, 08:37 AM'] The Pope set up and approved the whole thing,
LittleLes
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Yes. The Pope.
In Rome.

Where did the Spanish Inquistion take place again????

Maybe His Holiness should have checked his emails more frequently. Or at least stayed by the phone. And the fact that he ignored the tv news reports is downright disgraceful.

Edited August 28, 2005 by Quietfire

[Quietfire]

Written by David Goldstein's 1943 book, "LETTERS Hebrew-Catholic to Mr. Isaacs".
Mr. Goldstein was Jewish who later converted to the Church.

[quote]To properly understand this question, it is necessary to bear in mind the fact that the Inquisition was instituted in Spain for persons who professed to be [u]Catholics and not for practicing Jews[/u]. It was to unearth, and to bring to penance, not merely heretics, as many Jews believe, but also bigamists, adulterers, blasphemers, and other violators of the principles of the Church to which they, as baptized men and women, were obligated to be true. George E. Sokolsky, publicist, of New York City, says in "We Jews,"[/quote]

In other words, It was from within the Church. Not some random openly practicing and obvious Jewish faithful.

[quote]"The task of the Inquisition was not to Persecute Jews but to cleanse the Church of unorthodoxy. The Inquisition was not concerned with infidels outside the Church but with heretics within it" (N.Y., 1935, p. 53).[/quote]



Pax.

[Quietfire]

To continue:

[quote]The Spanish Inquisition was instituted to weed out those baptized Jews and Moslems who pretended to be sincere Catholics, while they secretly adhered to the practices of Judaism and Mohammedanism, which is a most serious sacrilegious offense. They were also enemies of the State, which was Christian in principle and carried the Cross in battle against the Crescent.

As further evidence, consider what Dr. Salo Wittmayer Baron, one of America's foremost Jewish historians, has to say about this matter. I quote from "A Social and Religious History of the Jews" (N.Y., 1937, VOL 2 p. 58) -

"It appears to be a fact as well as a theory that Jews who never ceased professing Judaism were, on the whole, left undisturbed. - In the fourteen years of the activity of the Spanish Inquisition, from its establishment in 1478 to the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, we hear of only [b]one[/b] persecution directed against a Jewish community, where the Jewry of Huesca was accused in 1489 of having admitted conversos (pseudo-converts from Judaism to Christianity) to the Jewish fold. It was precisely the inability of the inquisitorial courts to check Jewish influence on the conversos that served as a decisive argument for the Catholic monarchs in banishing Jews from Spain...... [/quote]

So so far all inquiries taken place during the S.I. were Catholic on Catholic. That sounds like cleaning house to me.

Although yes, the Jewry of Huesca were accused and were expelled from Spain, a Christian society, but this was ultimately done by the King. Of course, the King was almost bribed by them to allow them to stay undisturbed.

Pax.

Edited August 28, 2005 by Quietfire

[Quietfire]

and of course...

[quote]Properly to understand this question, it is necessary to bear in mind the fact that Spain was at war for more than a half dozen centuries against the Mohammedans with whom the Jews were lined up against the Spaniards. It was a battle of the Cross against the Crescent. This is vouched for by Graetz's "History of the Jews," the "Jewish Encyclopedia," the "Encyclopedia of Jewish Knowledge," "Vallentine's Jewish Encyclopedia," and other authorities of foremost standing in Jewry. The two last named say,

"The Spanish Jews welcomed, it is even said that they invited, the Arab invasion. Under the Caliphate (Mohammedan ruler) of the West, with its capital at Cordova, their members (the Jews) grew and they attained great influence in the State" (Dr. Cecil Roth, in Vallentine's J.E., p. 612).

"It is admitted that the African Jews aided the Arabs in the capture of Cordova, Malaga, Granada, Seville, and Toledo and these cities were placed under Jewish control by the conquerors" (Ency. J. Knowledge, p. 531).[/quote]


Dr. Roth is Jewish btw.


Pax

[LittleLes]

Quietfire argues,

"DO NOT CONFUSE THE INQUISITION WITH THE HOLOCAUST.
There is no commonality between them and only shows that you are grabbing at straws."

RESPONSE:

No commonality you say! Really ?

Both were directed against people who were thought not to be in agreement with those in power.

Both involved belief systems.

The "out group" was killed by both "in groups."

In both, the "out group" was demonized.

In both cases those conducting the suffering were told that they were doing God's will by those in power.

No commonality, you say?

LittleLes

But I'd agree that there was one major difference in that the accused underwent much more pain and suffering under the Church.

[Quietfire]

[quote]Properly to understand this question, it is necessary to bear in mind the fact that as far as the abuses of the Inquisition are concerned, the Catholic Church is no more responsible for them than she is for the Spanish bull fights which she condemned.

Those abuses were committed, with a few exceptions, by the civil power, and they were condemned by Popes Leo X, Paul III, Paul IV, and Sixtus IV who reigned during that period of history.

That is very likely news to you, as it is to most Jews, who have been "fed up" with stories of the Auto-da-Fe that are as far from being true as are the stories about Jews slaughtering Christian children to use their blood for ritual purposes. [/quote]

What's this about Jews slaughtering Chrisitan children to use their blood for ritual purposes?
I believe that as much as I believe that the Church slaughtered Jews during the S.I.

Pax

Edited August 28, 2005 by Quietfire

[Quietfire]

[url="http://www.trosch.org/for/inquisition.html"]heres the link.[/url]

No sense in c&p it all.

Pax

[Quietfire]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 28 2005, 10:41 AM']Quietfire argues,

"DO NOT CONFUSE THE INQUISITION WITH THE HOLOCAUST.
There is no commonality between them and only shows that you are grabbing at straws."

RESPONSE:

No commonality you say! Really ?

Both were directed against people who were thought not  to be in agreement with those in power.

Both involved belief systems.

The "out group" was  killed by both "in groups."

In both, the "out group" was demonized.

In both cases those conducting the suffering  were told that they were doing God's will by those in power.

No commonality, you say?

LittleLes

But I'd agree that there was one major difference in that the accused underwent much more pain and suffering under the Church.
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Your ignorance is astounding.

[avemaria40]

As for the Holocaust, Hitler was an apostate Catholic and he's the one who started it. He hated all religion, calling it flabby, controlled Protestant churches, closed Catholic schools, and killed many priests, nuns, and ministers, as well as rabbis. Also, the Holocaust was not aimed only at Jews (although most of the ppl executed for being Jewish), but also at dissabled ppl (mentally and physically), homosexuals, communists, socialists, etc. In fact, many ppl who died in the Holocaust became saints. And i hate it when ppl say that Catholics were responsible, b/c Hitler was a bad example of a Catholic, giving up his faith as a young adult, and the Pope at the time was in a very difficult position and he did help Jews escape but he couldn't publicly admit it, or Hitler could attack the Vatican, which is the smallest country in the world.

[Quietfire]

Belief system?
The Holocaust was the direct result of one man's delusional desire to eliminate an entire people, for no other motive than hatred, and made no bones that He wasnt going to stop there. That is why he moved on to the Poles.
Hitler made it clear that the Catholic Church was THE biggest problem in his quest for his "master race". He knew he would have to destroy the Church if his plans were to ever succeed.

How is that common which the S.I. ?

People converting to the Christian faith and all the while THIER agenda is to Judiaze the Church. They decided that it would be easier to get in to the Church and thus change it to suit their own needs.
The Church didnt prosecute Jews, the Church went after its very own to find out if they were, in fact, true christians. The fact that they lied in order to become Christian doesnt change anything.
They were christians who denied Christ, but on the facade claimed a love for Him. Then went about trying to destroy the Church from within.


Pax.