flip Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 I'm really not looking for arguement or even thoughts on this. I just want a list of what traditions have changed over the 2000 years of the church. for example; Eucharist in hand, then mouth, now both ways. Also, when the mass switched from Latin to the vernacular... can you kids help me out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Lots of things: We now have Altar girls We now have lay Eucharistic ministers We no longer have to abstain from meat on Firdays during ordinary time Priest are Celibate This is just a short list. There are so many things that have changed throughout the years, but they don't change our doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theistgal Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Keep in mind that when the Mass was first translated into Latin, Latin WAS the vernacular. So it's not really that much of a change! Also, our Eastern Rite churches have *always* celebrated their Liturgies in their vernacular languages. They have also always received Communion under both kinds, had lay people reading the Epistles (men and women), stood rather than knelt, etc. etc. That certainly does not mean the traditions of the Latin Rite are not good in and of themselves, and should not be preserved wherever possible. But it does help to gain some perspective when you remember that the Latin Way is not the *only* way that the Catholic Church has traveled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Lots of things: We now have Altar girls We now have lay Eucharistic ministers We no longer have to abstain from meat on Firdays during ordinary time Priest are Celibate This is just a short list. There are so many things that have changed throughout the years, but they don't change our doctrine. Just a note, Joyful...even though we are not required to abstain from meat on Fridays we are still required to do some sort of extra penance...like extra prayers or works of kindness. If you like I will pull up the source. We now have Mass in the vernacular but that is actually more true to the first Christians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 marielapin, I realize that, thanks though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Just a note, Joyful...even though we are not required to abstain from meat on Fridays we are still required to do some sort of extra penance...like extra prayers or works of kindness. If you like I will pull up the source. We now have Mass in the vernacular but that is actually more true to the first Christians. why are you required to do extra things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Fridays are a day of penance because it was on a Friday that Christ died. Abstaining from meat is a form of penance, but it's no longer required of Catholics except during Lent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joyful Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 If you're referring to why we have to do extra things that aren't doctrine I think I can explain. When raising a child there are certain things that are essential to teach him: to love God, to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, that they are loved, basically everything it takes to make them a good person and get them to heaven. But there are other things you teach them too like to brush their teeth, clean their room, ... These things aren't essential, but they are VERY beneficial and not up to the child to decide whether or not they do them because they are to obey their mother and father. That's the way I look at the "extra" things we do, they are incredibly beneficial and if my church tells me to do them I will. Hope it helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 I'm really not looking for arguement or even thoughts on this. I just want a list of what traditions have changed over the 2000 years of the church. for example; Eucharist in hand, then mouth, now both ways. Also, when the mass switched from Latin to the vernacular... can you kids help me out? When the Mass is in Latin, the only parts that are in Latin is when the Priest prays to God for the people. The Scripture readings & Homily are in the native language of wherever the Mass is being held. The reason for the Mass being in Latin so long was because many Priests use to travel, and no matter where the Priest was to say Mass, everyone could follow along. "Disciplines" can change in the Church. It is faith and morals which never change, and never have changed, since Pentacost. Here are a few resources that might help you in your studies... http://www.ScriptureCatholic.com http://www.Catholic.com http://www.USCCB.org http://www.Catholic-Pages.com http://www.MoralTruth.com God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 flip, We don't argue, we debate! We all love each other, though sometimes we disagree. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Actually, it might be easier to list the things which have never changed in 2,000 years: Our Bible Our Ten Commandments Our Seven Sacraments Our Honor for Mary and the Saints Our Church hierarchical order: Pope/archbishops/bishops/priests Our trust in and obedience to the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church. Things that have changed: Buildings/structure/postures/music/days of holy observance Also: Some things which were understood and commonly accepted by the Early Church Fathers weren't put into writing until much later, when such beliefs were challenged by heretics. (Some protestants accuse the Church of having invented, for instance, Papal infallibility. By reading the ECF, you see that they always submitted ultimate obedience to the authority of the Pontiff.) Some theological Truths became more deeply understood over time, and although the basic understanding hasn't changed, our understanding has broadened. (Such as "Outside the Church, there is no salvation.") Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 marielapin, I realize that, thanks though! Hope I didn't sound like I was attacking, for some reason it seems like most Catholics haven't heard about this. Tradition of the Church: Friday Penance "Friday must be a day of self-denial now and forever more!" Our Lady - February 28, 1971 FRIDAY PENANCE As Our Lady of the Roses message so clearly states, "Friday must be a day of self-denial now and forevermore!" From the beginning of the Church, Friday has been a day of self-denial in honor of the crucifixion of Christ on Good Friday. This tradition is explained in the Catholic Encyclopedia: From the dawn of Christianity, Friday has been signalized as an abstinence day, in order to do homage to the memory of Christ suffering and dying on that day of the week. The "Teaching of the Apostles" (viii), Clement of Alexandria (Strom., VI, 75), and Tertullian (De jejun., xiv) make explicit mention of this practice. Pope Nicholas I (858-867) declares that abstinence from flesh meat is enjoined on Fridays. There is every reason to conjecture that Innocent III (1198-1216) had the existence of this law in mind when he said that this obligation is suppressed as often as Christmas Day falls on Friday (De observ. jejunii, ult. cap. Ap. Layman, Theologia Moralis, I, iv, tract. viii, ii). Moreover, the way in which the custom of abstaining on Saturday originated in the Roman Church is a striking evidence of the early institution of Friday as an abstinence day. (The Catholic Encyclopedia, “Abstinence”) Many Catholics today do not know that there is an existing obligation to abstain from meat on all Fridays of the year. While it is true that the Code of Canon Law allows for the substituting of another penitential practice, authorized by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops (NCCB), such a substitute penitential practice has not been defined. As a consequence the abiding custom of the Church has been set aside. Few clergy, with rare exception, inform the faithful of their obligations. If the average Catholic were asked if they abstain from meat on Fridays (or substitute another significant penitential practice), they would say no. If asked what penitential practice they have substituted in place of not eating meat, they would commonly say none. The Catholic clergy have long neglected to teach the faithful about the obligatory requirement of either abstaining from meat on all Fridays of the year, or of substituting another observance. They have sinned by omission. It should be noted that even Pope Paul VI's variance in Paenitemini of 17 February, 1966 did not abrogate (terminate) the obligation to at least substitute another form of penitential practice. From THE CATHOLIC ANSWER, Sept/Oct 1990, page 21: "One final comment on Friday abstinence: Church law still maintains Friday as a day of penance. If a person chooses not to abstain from meat, he or she must perform an alternative penance." THE CODE OF CANON LAW The Code of Canon Law indicates that Catholics are supposed to abstain from meat on all Fridays during the year, not just during Lent: Canon 1250 -- All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the universal Church. Canon 1251 -- Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Canon 1253 -- It is for the conference of bishops to determine more precisely the observance of fast and abstinence and to substitute in whole or in part for fast and abstinence other forms of penance, especially works of charity and exercises of piety. The National Conference of Catholic Bishops in their pastoral statement of November 18, 1966 determined the following: Catholics in the United States are obliged to abstain from the eating of meat on Ash Wednesday and on all Fridays during the season of Lent. They are also obliged to fast on Ash Wednesday and on Good Friday. Self-imposed observance of fasting on all weekdays of Lent is strongly recommended. Abstinence from flesh meat on all Fridays of the year is especially recommended to individuals and to the Catholic community as a whole. The entire statement can be found in Canon Law Digest (CLD 6, 679--684). The potentially misleading effect of the NCCB statement above is that the obligation of Friday penance is not clearly conveyed to the Catholic faithful, though the obligation remains in full force (by the superior authority of the Holy Father, the Pope, who has not abrogated the obligation of Friday penance). Many of the Catholic faithful, in practice, have misinterpreted the law of the Church and erroneously concluded that penance is no longer required on all Fridays. Our Lady's message reminds the Catholic faithful of this obligation that has existed since the time of Christ and the Apostles. "My children, hell and purgatory--forgotten! My Son's death upon the cross--forgotten, as you happily raise your voices, call Him Savior, and think all are saved without penance, atonement, and sacrifice! Shall you sin and be always forgiven without penance? No, I say to you! Only a few will be saved. Many are called, but few are chosen." - Our Lady, April 9, 1977 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 Keep in mind that when the Mass was first translated into Latin, Latin WAS the vernacular. So it's not really that much of a change! Also, our Eastern Rite churches have *always* celebrated their Liturgies in their vernacular languages. They have also always received Communion under both kinds, had lay people reading the Epistles (men and women), stood rather than knelt, etc. etc. That certainly does not mean the traditions of the Latin Rite are not good in and of themselves, and should not be preserved wherever possible. But it does help to gain some perspective when you remember that the Latin Way is not the *only* way that the Catholic Church has traveled. Theist Gal, I'm Byz and I've never known a lay person other than an acolyte to read (chant, sing) the Epistle. So far as I know, there are no lay lectors in the Eastern Catholic Churches. (And no "Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist" either.) Where did you learn this? I'd better read up. Maybe it's just my Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 THere are 22 or 23 rites in the Catholic Church, each with its own traditions. Customs and traditions change over time. Tradition does not. Which Church do you have in mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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