question

[avemaria40]

u all say that if someone doesn't know about Christ or His Church but still tries to seek God, they can be saved. but what if someone doesn't even know about God but still lives their lives according to the Gospel?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

yes if a person is invicibly (sp?) ignorant than they can be saved. if they know what the church teaches and reject it than they have no hope of salvation.

but it is not likely because to be saved is hard if they have no sacraments they would have to follow natural law perfectly to be saved.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote][b]Pope Bl. Pius IX:[/b]
We all know that [b]those who suffer from invincible ignorance with regard to our holy religion, if they carefully keep the precepts of the natural law which have been written by God in the hearts of all men, if they are prepared to obey God, and if they lead a virtuous and dutiful life, can, by the power of divine light and grace, attain eternal life[/b]. For God, who knows completely the minds and souls, the thoughts and habits of all men, will not permit, in accord with His infinite goodness and mercy, anyone who is not guilty of a voluntary fault to suffer eternal punishment.
[i]On Promotion of False Doctrines (Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, no. 7)[/i][/quote]
Applies to those who've never heard of God.

[Mikhail]

See, that just makes no sense. It's this question that reincarnation answers so well.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Aug 24 2005, 02:51 PM']See, that just makes no sense. It's this question that reincarnation answers so well.
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What?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

thats funny

[Winchester]

Then that person will go to Pittsburgh after death. It's like Limbo, but without the babies and Muzak.

[Mikhail]

So the Indian in the 15th century who has never heard of Christ dies in ignorance yet gets to enjoy the full bliss of heaven that someone like me has worked for all my life? And everyone is born in a different environment. If I was born into a Catholic home, I'd be Catholic, most likely. However, I wasn't, so, from your perspective, I don't have the advantages that you Catholics do. It's to my credit that I'm even looking at a faith that I was told was so horrible my whole life. If I was raised to think that Catholicism was horrid then why should I be judged the same as someone who was given the advantage of being raised Catholic?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Aug 24 2005, 06:10 PM']So the Indian in the 15th century who has never heard of Christ dies in ignorance yet gets to enjoy the full bliss of heaven that someone like me has worked for all my life? And everyone is born in a different environment. If I was born into a Catholic home, I'd be Catholic, most likely. However, I wasn't, so, from your perspective, I don't have the advantages that you Catholics do. It's to my credit that I'm even looking at a faith that I was told was so horrible my whole life. If I was raised to think that Catholicism was horrid then why should I be judged the same as someone who was given the advantage of being raised Catholic?
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I think you misunderstand what Pope Bl. Pius IX is saying. He states that invincibly ignorant persons have to follow the natural law to obtain salvation. They don't just go to heaven without doing any "work" because they are ignorant. Following the natural law does not require you to be a Catholic.

[Mikhail]

This doesn't change anything. Same thing applies.