Re-incarnation

[Jake Huether]

Okay, so, in the Purgatory thread we started to discuss Re-incarnation as a possible substitute for / solution to Purgatory. We pretty much agreed that it was almost impossible to have re-incarnation fit into Christian Theology, due to several things including the nature of our Baptism and the prospect of the Resurrection of the Body.

However, I suppose since re-incarnation was fresh in my mind, when I heard Sunday's reading, something struck me as interesting.

Matthew 16:

[quote]13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
    14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

    15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

    16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[b] the Son of the living God." [/quote]

Reading it now, I kind of answer my own question... but it'd be good to get advice nonetheless.

You see, the people believed that Jesus was John the Baptist, or Elijah, or Jeremiah...

So, did they believe that Jesus was a re-incarnation of them?

But then it just occured to me that John was living at the same time as Jesus, so it couldn't mean that intirely - as we understand re-incarnation...

What did the people think Jesus was specifically then?

Did they think that Jesus had come "in the spirit" of these prophets?

What is the meaning of this?

It may not "prove" re-incarnation. Even if these people [i]thought[/i] Jesus was some re-incarnation of someone else, Peter's response to who Jesus is show's that He isn't anyway... But what do these people think Jesus is then. Or how are we to interpret Peter's statement about what they believe?

Did they believe in re-incarnation back then?

Thanks!

[Era Might]

Luke 9:19 indicates that they thought it was a case of being raised from the dead, rather than reincarnation:

[quote]John the Baptist; others, Elijah; still others, 'One of the ancient prophets has arisen.'[/quote]

Elijah never died, so that's why they wondered if he was Elijah. Before Jesus began his public ministry, John the Baptist was the famous one, which is why they wondered if maybe John had been raised from the dead. And, of course, they wondered if it was one of the ancient prophets, for example, Enoch, who also never died.

Their expectation for a prophet to prepare the way for the Messiah is recorded in Malachi 3, the final book of the OT:

[quote]Lo, I will send you Elijah, the prophet, Before the day of the LORD comes, the great and terrible day,

To turn the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, Lest I come and strike the land with doom. Lo, I will send you Elijah, the prophet, Before the day of the LORD comes, the great and terrible day. [/quote]

Edited August 23, 2005 by Era Might

[Mikhail]

You all agreed, maybe, but you didn't consider it from the right standpoint either. The western concept of reincarnation is very different from the eastern one. Instead of thinking of reincarnation as an outside thing that would have to fit your preconceived version, think instead if you were already convinced it was true and needed your beliefs to fit with it. When you start to have doubts about some other belief, you search the scriptures and ask questions until you understand how it fits. Try that with reincarnation. Of course, since none of you believe it, it will be very hard to do that.

FYI, many of the people in biblical times did believe in reincarnation. As you said, this would seem to suggest reincarnation. They mentioned Jeramiah, which doesn't fit into your cut and dry answer that it was only prophets that didn't die. Also, those who knew Jesus in his youth thought him to be a reincarnation of a prophet. If he was risen from the dead, he would have looked the same. I don't think people were mistaking Jesus for John because of his looks.

[Era Might]

[quote]When you start to have doubts about some other belief, you search the scriptures and ask questions until you understand how it fits. [/quote]

This is not at all how Christian revelation works. Scripture and Tradition cannot be manipulated to make room for contrary propositions. What concord has light with darkness, as St. Paul says? The ressurrection of the body, like the divinity of Christ, is a central truth of the Christian faith. The concept of reincarnation, of whatevery variety, does violence to the truth about man, and his dignity as a child of God.

[quote]many of the people in biblical times did believe in reincarnation.[/quote]

Document this, with credible scholarship.

[quote] They mentioned Jeramiah, which doesn't fit into your cut and dry answer that it was only prophets that didn't die.[/quote]

I never said it was only prophets who didn't die. I simply suggested Enoch and Eljiah, because they are the two most obvious examples.

[quote]If he was risen from the dead, he would have looked the same. I don't think people were mistaking Jesus for John because of his looks.[/quote]

No, not because of his looks. Because of his fame. Most people who saw Jesus never saw John. John the Baptist was famous because he had many disciples. Many people thought John the Baptist was the Messiah, and so when a new prophet arose after his death, they naturally wondered if God had raised his Anointed from the dead.

Granting the possibility that there were Jews who held some form of reincarnation, this is hardly relevant. The Pharisees and the Sadducees were bitterly divided over the question of the ressurrection of the dead. Their disagreement has no bearing on the truth which was confirmed by the Lord and his Apostles, that if the dead are not raised, Christ died to no purpose.

Edited August 23, 2005 by Era Might

[hierochloe]

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Aug 23 2005, 02:37 AM']The western concept of reincarnation is very different from the eastern one. [/quote]

Can you clarify as to what important differences there are between the two versions?

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Aug 23 2005, 02:37 AM']When you start to have doubts about some other belief, you search the scriptures and ask questions until you understand how it fits. Try that with reincarnation. Of course, since none of you believe it, it will be very hard to do that. [/quote]

I dunno, I found it quite easy to approach reincarnation, no differently than any other question I've ever had. I think the key is not to 'pretend' you believe in it while you search for answers nor 'pretend' you don't believe in it, but rather to be objective in weighing the evidence (although reading your post again I think this is really where you're coming from). Nevertheless, personally I find scripture to side overwhelmingly in favor of one life on this earth, not many. While reincarnation might be interpreted by some implicitly from certain scriptural passages (as many other 'non-Christian' things might be), I've found there to be far more implicit and fairly explicit scripture that is contrary. What could I be missing?

[Mikhail]

Era Might, you completely missed and proved my point.

Hierochloe,

I'd be glad to. When people from the west hear reincarnation (including myself), they not only have a automatic diversion from it because of the implications of it, but they have several misconceptions about it. They think that reincarnation means becoming animals as well as people. Such an idea is completely wrong because that would defy Christianity and would change the whole view. Also, they think that the instant one dies, they are instantly conceived. This is not the case. As one studied cases of reincarnation, one always comes across the fact that the people were always "up" for a significant period of time before being born again. One more is that when one is reincarnated, one starts from scratch. However, your actions in your previous life determine what kind of person you will be in this life, how open you are to the truth, and how close you will be to the end. This solves massive problems that death for non-Christians brings up.

[hierochloe]

Thanks for that, Mik.

So a person's previous life basically determines the personality of the person in the next life.What about the affect of all the stressors that person is exposed to in their new life? Is a tendency in personality all you get to take with you to the next life to aid you in the journey or is there a karma factor that dictates the other external factors that form who a personality, which could potentially ruin the fruits of labor from their past life? If not, that kinda seems like having to take Intermediate Algebra after failing it (which I've had to do ) without being allowed to remember anything from before except for for Beginning Algebra (and that's a generous example). Why wouldn't you get to remember more of your past life? The amnesia efffect lacks purpose imo.

Out of pure curiousity, can you give an example of someone in the world who you think might have been in their last life or within a life or two of their final earthly generation?

[Mikhail]

hierochloe,

Do you have a name? It just seems weird calling you hierochloe.

Are you really interested in discussing this? Do you have some form of instant messaging program?

[hierochloe]

Heh, you should hear people try and speak that screen name. It worked great when I first started using it because there was virtually no chance that it would ever be used by some one else. Most people shorten it to Hiero for simplicity. In real life they call me Joe.

Unfortunately I don't have IM. I do most of my posting here from a computer at work which blocks those things. Maybe you could post a link to a page that contains most of the basic tenets to which you subscribe.

[Jake Huether]

How do those who subscribe to re-incarnation define the mind? I think this will clear up the amnesia thingy. I believe there must be a substantial disconnect with the Christian understanding of mind soul spirit memory and body and how they interact for re-incarnation to be workable.

If one retains certain traits from their past life that determine how they are in the next, then this indicates that their mind must have retained certain memories of the past life. Yet, how (or the better question would be why) do these certain memories remain while such basic ones as - how I looked, or who my parents were, do not remain?

And just for the sake of clarity... I never interpreted re-incarnation to mean that we come back as animals.

And we did discuss the issue of the "waiting" period for a soul who must be re-incarnated...

This only brings up the same questions that Purgatory did... i.e. what happens in this state - and where is the soul in relation to God (in heaven, hell, or some third state)??

I'd be interested, like hiero, in such a web page also.

Much thanks.

God bless.

[Mikhail]

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find a page (haven't really been looking) that shows my beliefs. It's mostly been my friend and I researching it with books and such.

[Cathurian]

Hebrews 9:27 - Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment...

You can check this out in context, but this part is the important part. No reincarnation.

[Mikhail]

That could be interpreted in any number of ways. It could mean your last death, then after this the judgement. I could mean after the end of the world.

On the other hand, there are many places that suggest that people of the time believed in reincarnation. The examples of karma in the old testament are too numerous to mention. A prime example of the belief in reincarnation was when the diciples asked Jesus if the man was [i]born[/i] blind because of sins he had commited. Now how could he be punished for sins that he commited by being born blind? If it was his first life, than how could that have been a valid option?

If anyone is honestly interested in looking into reincarnation, I suggest you read the book Karma and Reincarnation by Elizabeth Prophet. It's an excellent book that brings up both biblical, historical, scientific, logical proof of karma and reincarnation. It was given to me by a Catholic friend of mine. It's a small book and an easy read. It would save me the time of repeating what she says.