sin?

[avemaria40]

Ok, i read the book "in my hands" by Irene Gut Opdyke and it said she had to sleep with a German soldier to save the lives of her Jewish friends, one of them who was carrying a child. When she went to Confession for advent, her priest told her that he could not absolve her since she had no intention to stop sleeping with the soldier until her friends were absolutely safe. Would it be a sin to commit fornication in this case?

[scardella]

I don't know if there's any "good" answer in a scenario like this, but I believe we can safely stick to the rule of thumb, the ends never justify the means.

[quote]If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire.  And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life crippled than with two feet to be thrown into Gehenna. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Better for you to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into Gehenna, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' 
-Mk 9:43-48[/quote]

You have to keep your eyes to the eternal.

[quote]And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
-Mt 10:28[/quote]

I also think that her feeling the need to confess it is answer enough.

[Didacus]

I agree that it does constitue a sin.

Mind you, I definately would not be the one to cast the first stone in such a case. If I would have been the priest in question, I would have granted forgiveness, though councilled against her continuing her behavior. But I am not a priest however...

[thessalonian]

[quote name='scardella' date='Aug 22 2005, 01:11 PM']I don't know if there's any "good" answer in a scenario like this, but I believe we can safely stick to the rule of thumb, the ends never justify the means.
You have to keep your eyes to the eternal.
I also think that her feeling the need to confess it is answer enough.
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At first I agreed with what you said, but I don't think it is quite that simple.
If the ends don't justify the means all the time then if German soldiers came to her door asking the whereabouts of a certain Jewish family she was harboring, she would have to turn them in.

I think the difference in this case is she is not really preventing sin of others. The German soldier will sin either way, with her or the Jews he would kill. But I would say the culpability might be diminished. It's a difficult question. In the end one has to search the heart and the motives. I truly think that if she felt compelled to do it for no other reason but to save the lives of others in each specific instance, it may not be culpable. Though there is that question about trusting the providence of God against things that "might happen".

Blessings

[Era Might]

This is, without question, a grave sin. It is better for every person in the world to die than to commit even the smallest sin against God. Carnal relations outside of marriage is unacceptable, no matter what the cost. Remember the Holy Innocents. They died because of the Magi's refusal to do what Herod demanded, but they surely did not lose their crown.

Culpability is a separate question.

[Aloysius]

[quote]If the ends don't justify the means all the time then if German soldiers came to her door asking the whereabouts of a certain Jewish family she was harboring, she would have to turn them in.
[/quote]

no, because she is not required to volunteer all information. just because popular usage calls this a "white lie" doesn't mean it's actually lying. on the contrary, it is NOT lying. you are not required to volunteer the whole truth.

good and holy examples of what to say when the Germans come a knocking:
"are there jews in this house"
"what would jews be doing in this house?"

"are you hiding any jews"
"no, I'm not hiding any juice" (it may not work as well in german)

"are there any jews here?"
"no there are not "(there are Jewish people here, but no "Jews")

anyway, back to the issue at hand, there is a question of culpability... it might be that the German soldier is culpable of rape by such forcing... in which case the woman would not be culpable at all... I don't know

[Didacus]

I beg to differ Aloysius.

A lie is simply 'leading someone to believe something that you believe is untrue'.

Thus is you start playing games like "There are no juice in this house." then you are leading the Germans to believe there are no jews in the house when you know that is the reply they seek, and you know it to be untrue - thus a clear lie.

The solution, I believe, is simply to say and do nothing. Give absolutely no reply. this of course can lead you into further trouble, but I think it is the only 'sinless' reply.

On a last note, if in that situation, I would lie through my teeth, and hope god understands and forgives.

[Era Might]

[quote]A lie is simply 'leading someone to believe something that you believe is untrue'.[/quote]

Not necessarily. For example, if you hide from a Nazi, you are leading them to believe you are not there, even though you are.

In the examples Aloysius gives, you don't necessarily have to believe them to be untrue. If you say, "I am not hiding any juice", you firmly believe that.

Edited August 22, 2005 by Era Might

[Didacus]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Aug 22 2005, 03:19 PM']Not necessarily. For example, Our Lord frequently made it seem like he wasn't in the crowd, so that he could escape. This is a form of physically leading someone to believe something you know is untrue.

In the examples Aloysius gives, you don't necessarily have to believe them to be untrue. If you say, "I am not hiding any juice", you firmly believe that.
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The first I would say being discrete more than actually making a statement of any sort, but I am not certain I follow your example?!?!? If he made it seem that he was not in the crwod, would it not relate closer to my example of not providing a reply where one was asked?

The second, I beg to restate my difference: You believe you have no juice - true, but you also know that your statement will lead someone else to believe there are no jews in the house and thus you are lying by leading someone towards something you know is untrue.

[Aloysius]

let me find that quote from the Catechism whereby you do not have to volunteer any information.

the idea is that the German Soldier does not have the right to that information. You recognize that, and do not offer that information. If he asks for it, you tell him truth that doesn't even relate to that information. He does not have the right to that information.

[quote]2482 "A lie consists in speaking a [b]falsehood [/b]with the intention of deceiving."281 The Lord denounces lying as the work of the devil: "You are of your father the devil, . . . there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."282

...

2488 The right to the communication of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. [b]This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.[/b]

2489 Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to every request for information or communication. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for [b]making use of a discreet language[/b]. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283[/quote]
<emphasis mine>

it's evasive action, you avoid actually answering the question. it is morally licit when the person does not have the right to the information he is requesting.

[dUSt]

If you say juice but the German thinks you are saying jews and you know the German thinks you are saying jews when you say juice then you are lying to the German. I have kids. I know. Speaking of kids, I need to pick up some juice for my 1/4 German son.

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Aug 22 2005, 02:48 PM']
Culpability is a separate question.
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No. It is thee question or there is no discussion at all. The woman is under some duress. Yes, the matter is grave and she has knowledge but the question is consent, otherwise the thread is pointless.