cmotherofpirl Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 And fewer could read LATIN, of course, that little discrepancy was cleared up with Luthers German translation, allowing those who chose to, to read for THEMSELVES what the Scriptures said, rather than relying on the Catholic Church to "splain it" to them. Wow. Eyes were certainly opened immediately, and the world began to change. As I said, the process is ongoing even now. Millions depart annually, and will continue to do so. But big Catholic families keep the pews full, and the money flowing, so I guess that sort of evens things out for the Catholic Church. Luther was not the first translation into the venacular. You really think the world has changed for the better, you think Jesus is happy that there are thousands of groups out there all claiming to be christians, when the Bible says one faith, one baptism. Boy I bet Jesus is SO proud of Luther and his sins. Better he had followed the example of Francis and the other great Saints of the time who reformed the Church from within. and I love how you always resort to insults when you run out of facts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 *takes off moderator hat* Bruce are you a Christian? PLEASE check your "facts before you post them here. Consider your sources. Pray before you post. I don't remember the last time I read anything you posted that was objectively true or even thought provoking. Why can't you be more like Circle? *puts hat back on* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted December 27, 2003 Share Posted December 27, 2003 I wish I was an anti-catholic and saved... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 easy paladin.........i know what you're saying, but take it eeeeeasy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Boy I bet Jesus is SO proud of Luther and his sins. Better he had followed the example of Francis and the other great Saints of the time who reformed the Church from within. From what I recall, Luther first posted the reforms in Latin, (ya know, the 95 thesis) which the common people could not read. It was only after they were not answered, and reform did not come, and Luther was invited to a Diet which not too long before one went under the protection of safety and promptly was killed because 'protection doesn't extend to heretics' which he was forewarned from, and did not attend. Luther himself told the peasants not to revolt in the Peasants revolt of Germany. I wouldn't say he really attempted to reform it from without until from within, he was kicked out. (that rhymes, don't mess it up) If anything, be a little more moderate with language towards Luther, as he definately is not entirely at fault there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Bruce S., You are so proud of telling how many folks are leaving Catholicism, but you say nothing about the many people who convert to Catholicism every year. I myself am such a convert, and am humbled at the grace that God gave me that I might come into the Church that He founded. Additionally, in Luther's day if you were taught to read, you were taught to read in Latin. That was the language of the courts, commerce and The Church. The Bible in Latin was not a hindrance to those who could read, although as Cmom has pointed out, Luther was certainly not the first translator. In fact, Luther was such a good translator that he realized we didn't even need several books of the Bible, like for example James. Strange how almost noone agreed with him. Circle Master, The 95 thesis were not "reforms", but questions and accusations for the church to answer. It was in essence an invitation to debate. He, however, skipped over the niceties and went pretty much straight to polemics. I'm not sure how moderate you would like us to be towards someone who drew lewd sketches of priests, induced a nun to forsake her vows and become his wife, and politically supported princes who launched the German states into a war. Henry VIII couldn't even find something nice to say about the guy. peace... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Circle Master, The 95 thesis were not "reforms", but questions and accusations for the church to answer. It was in essence an invitation to debate. He, however, skipped over the niceties and went pretty much straight to polemics. I'm not sure how moderate you would like us to be towards someone who drew lewd sketches of priests, induced a nun to forsake her vows and become his wife, and politically supported princes who launched the German states into a war. Henry VIII couldn't even find something nice to say about the guy. peace... You're jumping the gun a bit again. A few things a) Reform: "To abolish abuse or malpractice in" "To put an end to (a wrong)". By pointing out errors and abuses, this was indeed a reform. b) Would you support princes who wishes to go to war so that you could live? Especially when you believe yourself to be seeking the truth? I would hope so. c) Henry VIII couldn't find anything nice to say? I don't believe his entire life is catalogued and drawing this conclusion is overstepping the bounds of history. That is completely your spin. Let's try to make this stick to what we know, and not what you want to believe. d) The 'niceties' skipped over would have led to his death. That isn't very 'niceity' They already considerred him at heretic at this point and 'vows don't have to be kept to heretics' was held in those days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PedroX Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 Circle Master, So, when Henry VIII wrote "Assertio septem Sacramentorum adversus Martin. Lutherum" he was not refuting Luther's heresy? (this was the book that earned Henry the title "Defender of the faith" from Pope Leo X) I also find it ironic that you claim that tradtions not written down by the apostles are not valid, but unwritten thoughts or statements by Henry VIII are up for debate. As to the rest of your post. Pointing out abuses (what Luther did in the 95 theses) is not the same as "to abolish abuse or malpractice in" or "to put an end to (a wrong)" (your definition of reform) Pointing something out hardly ends it. Supporting a war so that I might live is possibly immoral. Luther was gambling in politics. Inflamming the political ambitions of the German Princes against the Pope, and the Catholic countries. Pretty similar to Henry VIII of England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Circle_Master Posted December 28, 2003 Share Posted December 28, 2003 As to the rest of your post. Pointing out abuses (what Luther did in the 95 theses) is not the same as "to abolish abuse or malpractice in" or "to put an end to (a wrong)" (your definition of reform) Pointing something out hardly ends it. Supporting a war so that I might live is possibly immoral. Luther was gambling in politics. Inflamming the political ambitions of the German Princes against the Pope, and the Catholic countries. Pretty similar to Henry VIII of England. actually, reforms start by acknowledging, that definition is from... The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved. not my definition anyway, you say it is an immoral act from your perspective. If you believed it was the truth, it would not have been immoral to you, but necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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