God, Revelation, Faith, Reason.... Vatican I

[ironmonk]

anathema: A Greek word with the root meaning of cursed or separated and the adapted meaning of excommunicated. Used in Church documents, especially the canons of ecumenical councils, to condemn heresy and practices opposed to proper discipline.

Vatican I Canons...

1. On God the creator of all things

1. If anyone denies the one true God, creator and lord of things visible and invisible: let him be anathema.

2. If anyone is so bold as to assert that there exists nothing besides matter: let him be anathema.

3. If anyone says that the substance or essence of God and that of all things are one and the same: let him be anathema.

4. If anyone says that finite things, both corporal and spiritual, or at any rate, spiritual, emanated from the divine substance; or that the divine essence, by the manifestation and evolution of itself becomes all things or, finally, that God is a universal or indefinite being which by self determination establishes the totality of things distinct in genera, species and individuals: let him be anathema.

5. If anyone does not confess that the world and all things which are contained in it, both spiritual and material, were produced, according to their whole substance, out of nothing by God; or holds that God did not create by his will free from all necessity, but as necessarily as he necessarily loves himself; or denies that the world was created for the glory of God: let him be anathema.

2. On revelation

1. If anyone says that the one, true God, our creator and lord, cannot be known with certainty from the things that have been made, by the natural light of human reason: let him be anathema.

2. If anyone says that it is impossible, or not expedient, that human beings should be taught by means of divine revelation about God and the worship that should be shown him : let him be anathema.

3. If anyone says that a human being cannot be divinely elevated to a knowledge and perfection which exceeds the natural, but of himself can and must reach finally the possession of all truth and goodness by continual development: let him be anathema.

4. If anyone does not receive as sacred and canonical the complete books of Sacred Scripture with all their parts, as the holy Council of Trent listed them, or denies that they were divinely inspired : let him be anathema.

3. On faith

1. If anyone says that human reason is so independent that faith cannot be commanded by God: let him be anathema.

2. If anyone says that divine faith is not to be distinguished from natural knowledge about God and moral matters, and consequently that for divine faith it is not required that revealed truth should be believed because of the authority of God who reveals it: let him be anathema.

3. If anyone says that divine revelation cannot be made credible by external signs, and that therefore men and women ought to be moved to faith only by each one's internal experience or private inspiration: let him be anathema.

4. If anyone says that all miracles are impossible, and that therefore all reports of them, even those contained in Sacred Scripture, are to be set aside as fables or myths; or that miracles can never be known with certainty, nor can the divine origin of the Christian religion be proved from them: let him be anathema.

5. If anyone says that the assent to Christian faith is not free, but is necessarily produced by arguments of human reason; or that the grace of God is necessary only for living faith which works by charity: let him be anathema.

6. If anyone says that the condition of the faithful and those who have not yet attained to the only true faith is alike, so that Catholics may have a just cause for calling in doubt, by suspending their assent, the faith which they have already received from the teaching of the Church, until they have completed a scientific demonstration of the credibility and truth of their faith: let him be anathema.

4. On faith and reason

1. If anyone says that in divine revelation there are contained no true mysteries properly so-called, but that all the dogmas of the faith can be understood and demonstrated by properly trained reason from natural principles: let him be anathema.

2. If anyone says that human studies are to be treated with such a degree of liberty that their assertions may be maintained as true even when they are opposed to divine revelation, and that they may not be forbidden by the Church: let him be anathema.

3. If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.

And so in the performance of our supreme pastoral office, we beseech for the love of Jesus Christ and we command, by the authority of him who is also our God and savior, all faithful Christians, especially those in authority or who have the duty of teaching, that they contribute their zeal and labor to the warding off and elimination of these errors from the Church and to the spreading of the light of the pure faith.

But since it is not enough to avoid the contamination of heresy unless those errors are carefully shunned which approach it in greater or less degree, we warn all of their duty to observe the constitutions and decrees in which such wrong opinions, though not expressly mentioned in this document, have been banned and forbidden by this Holy See.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Mary's Knight, La]

Thanks bro

[Good Friday]

Thanks Max. I don't think I've ever read the Canons of the First Vatican Council. In fact, I don't think I've ever read all the Canons of any of the Councils. I've read some of the Canons from the early Councils, but not that many. That seems neglectful, now that I think about it. I think I'll have to take a look at the Canons of some of the other Councils.

You don't happen to know where I could find them, do you?

[ironmonk]

Thanks Max.  I don't think I've ever read the Canons of the First Vatican Council.  In fact, I don't think I've ever read all the Canons of any of the Councils.  I've read some of the Canons from the early Councils, but not that many.  That seems neglectful, now that I think about it.  I think I'll have to take a look at the Canons of some of the other Councils.

You don't happen to know where I could find them, do you?

The Code of Canon Law:

http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/canon/

A few Councils in detail:

http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/councils.asp

Summary of Councils:

http://www.newadvent.org/almanac/14388a.htm

Various Council Info:

http://www.franciscan-sfo.org/TXS/COUNCILS.HTM

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Good Friday]

Thank ya.

[ironmonk]

Bump

[foundsheep]

SuperBump!

:loco:

[Bruce S]

So, all protestants are under ANATHEMA, or excommunication?

Great.

Thank God.

Like we want to be subject to a corrupt system of men.

Can I proposed a Sainthood for Martin Luther for his efforts?

:blink:

[ironmonk]

So, all protestants are under ANATHEMA, or excommunication?

Great.

Thank God.

Like we want to be subject to a corrupt system of men.

Can I proposed a Sainthood for Martin Luther for his efforts?

I feel sorry for you. This post that you felt you must do shows that you have very little knowledge of the topic.

Luther claimed that the Church was overcome by the Netherworld. Luther claims that Jesus was wrong... I believe Christ. The Church will never be overcome.

Acts 20:30

And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

Not to mention, Luther gave a man another wife because he was committing adultery.

Luther had some serous issues, but I have to give him credit for having a devotion to the Blessed Mother.

And I just love this quote of his...

"We are compelled to concede to the Papists that they have the Word of God, that we received it from them, and that without them we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther, Commentary on St. John

Luther and all the other offshots have a corrupt system of men.

The Catholic Church is a system established by Christ.

Please, take your bitterness elsewhere if you cannot continue dialogs in a brotherly fashion. It's a sure sign that you've got a lot to learn about Christ.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited December 27, 2003 by ironmonk

[Bruce S]

Without the corruption, veniality of the Catholic Church of Luther's day, there WOULD HAVE BEEN no need of the Reformation at all, and it would never have happened.

Was Luther divine, no, was Luther perfect, no, was Luther claiming to speak for God, only when deferring to the Bible, was Luther a founder of anything, no.

What he was, was a deeply devout CATHOLIC, seeking to reform HIS Church, HIS Church loved the corruption more than they loved the word of God, so they excommunicated him instead of listening to him.

It was only after 1/2 of the ENTIRE body of Catholic believers AGREED and hiked out the door, turning their collective backs on the corruption and petty dictatorship that Rome had become did the remaining Catholics begin to institute some reforms and clean up a LITTLE of the corruption that was apparent to all of that day and age.

Remember, EVERY SINGLE PROTESTANT was a Catholic first, every single one.

Millions and millions of people AGREED and left.

Don't forget that it was hardly the actions of a few men, it was entire communities, states, and entire nations that left.

And are leaving today, in Latin America and South America. Millions again are walking out the door.

Pray on that one. There is a reason, it is NOT because those millions of Catholics TODAY are apostate, they are recognizing apostacy, like those millions of Catholics did back in the Reformation.

[Dave]

Without the corruption, veniality of the Catholic Church of Luther's day, there WOULD HAVE BEEN no need of the Reformation at all, and it would never have happened.

Was Luther divine, no, was Luther perfect, no, was Luther claiming to speak for God, only when deferring to the Bible, was Luther a founder of anything, no.

What he was, was a deeply devout CATHOLIC, seeking to reform HIS Church, HIS Church loved the corruption more than they loved the word of God, so they excommunicated him instead of listening to him.

It was only after 1/2 of the ENTIRE body of Catholic believers AGREED and hiked out the door, turning their collective backs on the corruption and petty dictatorship that Rome had become did the remaining Catholics begin to institute some reforms and clean up a LITTLE of the corruption that was apparent to all of that day and age.

Remember, EVERY SINGLE PROTESTANT was a Catholic first, every single one.

Millions and millions of people AGREED and left.

Don't forget that it was hardly the actions of a few men, it was entire communities, states, and entire nations that left.

And are leaving today, in Latin America and South America. Millions again are walking out the door.

Pray on that one. There is a reason, it is NOT because those millions of Catholics TODAY are apostate, they are recognizing apostacy, like those millions of Catholics did back in the Reformation.

The Church itself wasn't corrupt. Individuals within the Church, clergy and laity alike, were.

And they excommunicated Martin Luther because he was a heretic! The ideas he dreamed up (they came from him, not God) went against the teachings of Christ.

And Catholics who leave the Church do so because they are unable to recognize the Church for what it is, namely, what Jesus Christ founded and the pillar and foundation of truth.

[ironmonk]

Without the corruption, veniality of the Catholic Church of Luther's day, there WOULD HAVE BEEN no need of the Reformation at all, and it would never have happened.

Was Luther divine, no, was Luther perfect, no, was Luther claiming to speak for God, only when deferring to the Bible, was Luther a founder of anything, no.

What he was, was a deeply devout CATHOLIC, seeking to reform HIS Church, HIS Church loved the corruption more than they loved the word of God, so they excommunicated him instead of listening to him.

It was only after 1/2 of the ENTIRE body of Catholic believers AGREED and hiked out the door, turning their collective backs on the corruption and petty dictatorship that Rome had become did the remaining Catholics begin to institute some reforms and clean up a LITTLE of the corruption that was apparent to all of that day and age.

Remember, EVERY SINGLE PROTESTANT was a Catholic first, every single one.

Millions and millions of people AGREED and left.

Don't forget that it was hardly the actions of a few men, it was entire communities, states, and entire nations that left.

And are leaving today, in Latin America and South America. Millions again are walking out the door.

Pray on that one. There is a reason, it is NOT because those millions of Catholics TODAY are apostate, they are recognizing apostacy, like those millions of Catholics did back in the Reformation.

Millions and millions of people couldn't read. If they could, they would have seen that Luther's 95 Thesis was full of lies.

I'll post them later when I have time, and how wrong they were.

There was corruption, but luther did not reform, he created his own church based on his personal interpretation.... and the virus spread from there... 34,000 and growing. How can any of them be the One Faith? - They can't.

Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Bruce S]

Millions and millions of people couldn't read. If they could, they would have seen that Luther's 95 Thesis was full of lies.

And fewer could read LATIN, of course, that little discrepancy was cleared up with Luthers German translation, allowing those who chose to, to read for THEMSELVES what the Scriptures said, rather than relying on the Catholic Church to "splain it" to them.

Wow.

Eyes were certainly opened immediately, and the world began to change.

As I said, the process is ongoing even now.

Millions depart annually, and will continue to do so.

But big Catholic families keep the pews full, and the money flowing, so I guess that sort of evens things out for the Catholic Church.

[Bruce S]

34,000 and growing. How can any of them be the One Faith? - They can't.

There we GO with the BIG LIE thing again.

Go read the BIG LIE thread. Settle down with that stuff or we will have to actually start talking about the divisions WITHIN Catholicsm, and that won't sit well here on the Dogma Site.

[nippy316]

There we GO with the BIG LIE thing again.

Maybe you should review that thread as well. Because you would find numerous times where it was said that it doesn't matter if there are 33,000 divisions or 3,000. They're still divisions.