Are You Saved?

[ironmonk]

Are you saved?

Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall. 1Cor 10:12

Now someone approached him and said, "Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?" He answered him, "Why do you ask me about the good? There is only One who is good. If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matt 19:16-17)

"Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" He said in reply, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." He replied to him, "You have answered correctly; do this and you will live." Luke 10:25-28

"Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day." John 6:54

"You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved." Matt 10:22

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned." Mark 16:16

Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. John 3:5

We are not saved until the end.

[Norseman82]

Another (what I call the "smoking gun"): Romans 11:22 (DR) "See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness. Otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. "

And another: Philippians 2:12 (DR) "Wherefore, my dearly beloved, (as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only but much more now in my absence) with fear and trembling work out your salvation. "

[mustbenothing]

(ironmonk) We are not saved until the end.

(Me) Paul teaches that we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved. Here are some examples:

Ephesians 2:8

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

1 Corinthians 1:18

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Romans 5:9

Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.

Edited July 28, 2003 by mustbenothing

[IcePrincessKRS]

I believe Ironmonk's point is that we do not know with absolute assurance that we are going to Heaven until the end. Any Catholic will agree with "we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved." We are not "once saved, always saved."

[mustbenothing]

(IcePrincessKRS) I believe Ironmonk's point is that we do not know with absolute assurance that we are going to Heaven until the end. Any Catholic will agree with "we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved." We are not "once saved, always saved."

(Me) And yet, "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6). This shows that we can know that we have been saved, and that if we have been saved, we are certain that we will be saved.

All the references to apostasy above simply prove that those who "went out from us... were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

[Brother Adam]

This will get interesting.

Welcome aboard mustbenothing. I'm Brother Adam, resident "crazy" Baptist and former Lutheran.

[ironmonk]

(IcePrincessKRS) I believe Ironmonk's point is that we do not know with absolute assurance that we are going to Heaven until the end. Any Catholic will agree with "we have been saved, are being saved, and will be saved." We are not "once saved, always saved."

(Me) And yet, "And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Philippians 1:6).  This shows that we can know that we have been saved, and that if we have been saved, we are certain that we will be saved.

All the references to apostasy above simply prove that those who "went out from us... were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us" (1 John 2:19).

Jesus says we are not saved until the end. In otherwords, we have no assurance. We can have confidence, but there is no assurance.

IcePrincess is correct. I have stated in other posts that we are saved, we are being saved, and we hope that we will be saved.

Phil 1:5

because of your partnership for the gospel from the first day until now.

6 I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work in you will continue to complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Confidence IS NOT assurance.

Someone can believe that they are saved, and in reality not be saved.

1Cor 10:12Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.

Scripture does not contradict scripture, only men's interpretations contradict each other.

2 Peter 1:20 - Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

2 Peter 3:16 - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

To say we have assurance is foolish, when Christ very clearly says that we must persevere until to the end to be saved.

St. Matt 10:22

You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.

St. Matt 24:13

But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

I believe Christ... and the Church that He left us built on Peter and the Apostles.

Ephesians 2:20

having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

Revelation 21:14

And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

God Bless, Love in Christ & Mary

ironmonk

Edited July 28, 2003 by ironmonk

[Norseman82]

This whole notion of "well, if they sin/apostasize/backslide, that means they were never saved in the first place" leads to an interesting conundrum: Joey Bagadonuts has become saved and even signed the tract that he found on the 'L' that told him how to be saved with the sinners prayer. So, he knows he's saved.

But.......

At some time in the future there is a possiblility that Joey Bagadonuts might sin....which means he is not really saved now, even though he thinks he is!

My brain hurts....

[mustbenothing]

(ironmonk) Jesus says we are not saved until the end. In otherwords, we have no assurance. We can have confidence, but there is no assurance.

(Me) Please try to actually deal with the arguments I presented. I argued that there are three kinds of "being saved" -- already, presently, and not yet. I then argued that if one has already been saved, one will certainly be saved in the "not yet" sense at judgment. Finally, I argued that it is actually possible to know that you have been saved. Therefore, as a simple inference from the second and third propositions, I concluded that it is possible to know that you will be saved.

(ironmonk) Phil 1:5

because of your partnership for the gospel from the first day until now.

6 I am confident of this, that the one who began a good work in you will continue to complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Confidence IS NOT assurance.

(Me) What do you mean by "assurance"? Paul indicates that he is persuaded or sure (perfect form of peitho - be confident or trust in a lasting sense) that they will be saved. It is surety. If by "assurance" you mean Cartesian certainty (i.e., you can't even conceive of being wrong), then sure he doesn't have Cartesian certainty. And yet, we don't have Cartesian certainty about much of anything.

So, likewise, for those who know they have been saved, I am sure that they will be saved at the judgment. See the assurance in Paul's statements about the Lord's protection of His sheep:

2 Thessalonians 3:3

But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.

(ironmonk) Someone can believe that they are saved, and in reality not be saved.

1Cor 10:12Therefore, whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall.

(Me) Yes. How does this cause a problem for what I said?

(ironmonk) Scripture does not contradict scripture, only men's interpretations contradict each other.

2 Peter 1:20 - Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation.

2 Peter 3:16 - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

(Me) Yes. How does this cause a problem for what I said?

(ironmonk) To say we have assurance is foolish, when Christ very clearly says that we must persevere until to the end to be saved.

(Me) Unless we have assurance that we will persevere, that is

(ironmonk) I believe Christ... and the Church that He left us built on Peter and the Apostles.

Ephesians 2:20

having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone,

Revelation 21:14

And the wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

(Me) Yes. How does this cause a problem for what I said?

[mustbenothing]

(NorseMan82) This whole notion of "well, if they sin/apostasize/backslide, that means they were never saved in the first place" leads to an interesting conundrum: Joey Bagadonuts has become saved and even signed the tract that he found on the 'L' that told him how to be saved with the sinners prayer. So, he knows he's saved.

(Me) I hate tracts. I hate the Sinner's Prayer. They don't show someone that they know they are saved. What shows someone they know they are saved is the immutable decree of God:

Romans 8:31-35

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?

33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

34 Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?

Likewise, the Spirit gives us assurance:

Ephesians 1:13-14

13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

(NorseMan82) But.......

At some time in the future there is a possiblility that Joey Bagadonuts might sin....which means he is not really saved now, even though he thinks he is!

(Me) And yet, our great High Priest is more than fit for the task:

1 John 2:1-3

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.