JP2Iloveyou Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 EENS, what do you make of the following quote then? [quote]"Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church".[/quote] This first appeared in Unitatis Redintegratio and has been quoted in at least Dominus Iesus and Ut Unum Sint that I know of. Now, I don't mean to antagonize you, but from reading your posts, it appears that you have moved in one of two directions. The first is that you reject the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and the teachings of His Holiness John Paul II, thus formally separating yourself from the Church and actually committing the very sin that you are so concerned about. The second is that you accept the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and those of Pope John Paul II. However, you feel that you have a moral duty to disregard them and try and explain why you think that they are wrong. This is really no different than groups like "Catholics" for a Free Choice. They accept the teachings of the Church, they just feel that they must be disobedient on teachings of sexual morality and abortion. This leads to the obvious conclusion that you think that the Church is teaching error. I STRONGLY recommend that you read [i]Development of Christian Doctrine[/i] by Cardinal John Henry Neuman. The doctrine of the Church does not change, but we do develop better understandings of it. I also recommend that you reread the Gospel readings from Mass yesterday and today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 [quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Aug 23 2005, 12:39 PM']EENS, what do you make of the following quote then? This first appeared in Unitatis Redintegratio and has been quoted in at least Dominus Iesus and Ut Unum Sint that I know of. Now, I don't mean to antagonize you, but from reading your posts, it appears that you have moved in one of two directions. The first is that you reject the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and the teachings of His Holiness John Paul II, thus formally separating yourself from the Church and actually committing the very sin that you are so concerned about. The second is that you accept the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and those of Pope John Paul II. However, you feel that you have a moral duty to disregard them and try and explain why you think that they are wrong. This is really no different than groups like "Catholics" for a Free Choice. They accept the teachings of the Church, they just feel that they must be disobedient on teachings of sexual morality and abortion. This leads to the obvious conclusion that you think that the Church is teaching error. I STRONGLY recommend that you read [i]Development of Christian Doctrine[/i] by Cardinal John Henry Neuman. The doctrine of the Church does not change, but we do develop better understandings of it. I also recommend that you reread the Gospel readings from Mass yesterday and today. [right][snapback]695604[/snapback][/right] [/quote] That is a good idea.....Newman would be a great help to him, assuming that he can wrap his 14 year old mind around it and understand it.....Newman isn't the easiest person to decipher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 true. I feel like an idiot, too. I can't believe I spelled his name wrong. I'm kind of in a hurry and typing fast. One other thing to point out, [i]Unan Sanctam[/i] was written in 1302. This was shortly after the Great Schism as well as prior to the reformation. The Protestant ecclesial communities did not exist yet. This is why it is crucial to distinguish between formal heresy and material heresy. "To those who have been given much, much will be expected in return." Someone like Martin Luther formally separated himself from union with Peter. The average Lutheran who attends services down the street probably has no idea that the fullness of truth is contained within the Catholic faith. That means that he/she is in material heresy. The bigger problem is why haven't good Catholics evangelized that person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 [quote name='JP2Iloveyou' date='Aug 23 2005, 12:50 PM']true. I feel like an idiot, too. I can't believe I spelled his name wrong. I'm kind of in a hurry and typing fast. One other thing to point out, [i]Unan Sanctam[/i] was written in 1302. This was shortly after the Great Schism as well as prior to the reformation. The Protestant ecclesial communities did not exist yet. This is why it is crucial to distinguish between formal heresy and material heresy. "To those who have been given much, much will be expected in return." Someone like Martin Luther formally separated himself from union with Peter. The average Lutheran who attends services down the street probably has no idea that the fullness of truth is contained within the Catholic faith. That means that he/she is in material heresy. The bigger problem is why haven't good Catholics evangelized that person? [right][snapback]695632[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Exactly right. My tract on heresy is in the Apologetics section and deals directly with that. (Thanks phatcatholic!!!!) PSSSTTT...it's Unam Sanctam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 i do not accept the teaching of the second Vatican council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 [quote]i do not accept the teaching of the second Vatican council.[/quote] Then you have separated yourself from union with the Church. I will pray for your speedy return to union with Peter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 I am in union with peter. i was not anathamized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 heres my take on the issue (correct me if im wrong) If one is baptized by a protestant en Nomine Patri et Fili et Spiritu Sancti. than you are baptised into the church you are in the body of christ. once you reject the Catholic church you are no longer part of the body of christ and therefore can not (except by following natural law as best as possibile) have any hope of salvation. It is a mortal sin to reject the church and once you do tsk tsk tsk. so you are in a state of mortal sin except your a a material heretic and do not know any better so its not really a state of mortal sin. there is a chance you could be saved but its unlikely. ??? errors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 [quote]SCHISM: Refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff, or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him (2089).[/quote] Please explain to me how rejecting the teachings of a Council is NOT refusal of submission to the Holy Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 "Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God, therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things." -- St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, Summa Theologica II-IIQ. 104 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JP2Iloveyou Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 [quote]heres my take on the issue (correct me if im wrong) If one is baptized by a protestant en Nomine Patri et Fili et Spiritu Sancti. than you are baptised into the church you are in the body of christ.[/quote] Agreed. [quote]once you reject the Catholic church you are no longer part of the body of christ and therefore can not (except by following natural law as best as possibile) have any hope of salvation. It is a mortal sin to reject the church and once you do tsk tsk tsk. so you are in a state of mortal sin except your a a material heretic and do not know any better so its not really a state of mortal sin. there is a chance you could be saved but its unlikely. ???[/quote] Mostly agree. I would not say that it is unlikely though. That determination is up to God. In the same way that we do not know how many of our Protestant brethren attain salvation, we do not know how many do NOT attain salvation. It is not up to us to decide, or even to speculate if it is a frequent or infrequent occurance. You are correct that it is a mortal sin to reject the Church, but one of the requirements to commit a mortal sin is full knowledge. This implies full knowledge of what you are rejecting. I find it hard to believe that anyone would have full knowledge that the fullness of truth and the means of salvation are contained within the Catholic Church and then fully will to reject that. If someone did that, I agree with you that he or she forfeits his/her salvation. That determination is up to God however. Not you, not me, not the Pope, not anyone but Christ himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 23 2005, 02:32 PM']"Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God, therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things." -- St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, Summa Theologica II-IIQ. 104 [right][snapback]695700[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I seen that same quote used to justify abortion, gay marriage, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 23 2005, 10:46 AM']Christians are baptized into christ. but by not being Catholic they commit a mortal sin. So all formal heretics can recieve no grace. [right][snapback]695516[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Eens, Your statement above doesn't make sense and also contradicts what you quoted in post #57 above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 yes i know i was confusing myslef but know i think i got it down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 23, 2005 Share Posted August 23, 2005 okay, EENS, now you are on the right track here. (believe it or not everybody, trust me here) [quote]heres my take on the issue (correct me if im wrong) If one is baptized by a protestant en Nomine Patri et Fili et Spiritu Sancti. than you are baptised into the church you are in the body of christ. once you reject the Catholic church you are no longer part of the body of christ and therefore can not (except by following natural law as best as possibile) have any hope of salvation. It is a mortal sin to reject the church and once you do tsk tsk tsk. so you are in a state of mortal sin except your a a material heretic and do not know any better so its not really a state of mortal sin. there is a chance you could be saved but its unlikely. ???[/quote] good, good, good. so you have come to the understanding that EENS really describes a type of mortal sin. now, do you accept the following from the Baltimore Catechism: [quote]Q. 282. How many things are necessary to make a sin mortal? A. To make a sin mortal, three things are necessary: 1.a grievous matter, sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will.[/quote] I could pull out Aquinas or anything else, this is the traditional teaching regarding mortal sin, no? so therefore 1. grevious matter- not being in the Catholic Church counts 2. sufficient reflection (also known as "full knowledge") 3. full consent of the will criteria number 2 is met only if a person knows by his conscience the action is wrong, or if the person through his own fault does not know the action is wrong (only God can know if it is through his own fault, i.e. culpable ignorance) criteria 3 is met only if a person fully wills to remain outside of the Catholic Church. remaining outside of the Church is not always a mortal sin. this is the traditional teaching of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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