Giving Communion to non-Catholics

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins, as the Spouse in the Canticles [Sgs 6:8] proclaims: 'One is my dove, my perfect one. She is the only one, the chosen of her who bore her,' and she represents one sole mystical body whose Head is Christ and the head of Christ is God [1 Cor 11:3]. In her then is one Lord, one faith, one baptism [Eph 4:5]. There had been at the time of the deluge only one ark of Noah, prefiguring the one Church, which ark, having been finished to a single cubit, had only one pilot and guide, i.e., Noah, and we read that, outside of this ark, all that subsisted on the earth was destroyed.[/quote]

Unam Sanctam

Edited August 23, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Fidei Defensor]

Im sorry, but this is the limit to my ability to discuss. I do not know enough to continue.

This topic, though, has been discussed many a time here in the debate table, and I suggest you look the threads up.

I will allow someone who knows more about this handle it.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

its about bedtime for me...............its one in the morning

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 23 2005, 12:18 AM']but by giving non-catholics the sacraments what do you hope to achieve if they cannon't be saved?
[right][snapback]695141[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

Sam, you have completely misread and misunderstood CCC 846 and following.

[quote name='CCC 846']How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?  Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[/quote]

[quote name='CCC 847']This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[/quote]

[quote name='CCC 848']"Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[/quote]

[quote name='CCC 856'][b]The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel.[/b]  Believers can profit from this dialogue by learning to appreciate better "those elements of truth and grace which are found among peoples, and which are, as it were, a secret presence of God." They proclaim the Good News to those who do not know it, in order to consolidate, complete, and raise up the truth and the goodness that God has distributed among men and nations, and to purify them from error and evil "for the glory of God, the confusion of the demon, and the happiness of man."[/quote]

This last part is pretty telling Sam.....your tone and your statments do not embody this mandate.

What does Can 844 say? Well...
[quote name='Can 844']§1. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments licitly to Catholic members of the Christian faithful alone, who likewise receive them licitly from Catholic ministers alone, without prejudice to the prescripts of §§2, 3, and 4 of this canon, and ⇒ can. 861, §2.

§2. Whenever necessity requires it or true spiritual advantage suggests it, and provided that danger of error or of indifferentism is avoided, the Christian faithful for whom it is physically or morally impossible to approach a Catholic minister are permitted to receive the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick from non-

Catholic ministers in whose Churches these sacraments are valid.

§3. Catholic ministers administer the sacraments of penance, Eucharist, and anointing of the sick licitly to members of Eastern Churches which do not have full communion with the Catholic Church if they seek such on their own accord and are properly disposed. This is also valid for members of other Churches which in the judgment of the Apostolic See are in the same condition in regard to the sacraments as these Eastern Churches.

§4. If the danger of death is present or if, in the judgment of the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops, some other grave necessity urges it, Catholic ministers administer these same sacraments licitly also to other Christians not having full communion with the Catholic Church, who cannot approach a minister of their own community and who seek such on their own accord, provided that they manifest Catholic faith in respect to these sacraments and are properly disposed.

§5. For the cases mentioned in §§2, 3, and 4, the diocesan bishop or conference of bishops is not to issue general norms except after consultation at least with the local competent authority of the interested non-Catholic Church or community.[/quote]

That is consistent Catholic theology. Sam, you said that you accept CCC 846, well, that is consistent with §4 and it is also consistent with CCC 856.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Aug 23 2005, 12:43 AM']Im sorry, but this is the limit to my ability to discuss. I do not know enough to continue.

This topic, though, has been discussed many a time here in the debate table, and I suggest you look the threads up.

I will allow someone who knows more about this handle it.
[right][snapback]695160[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
don't worry, eens doesn't know any more than you.

[jasJis]

fidei,
It is good when we get over our heads a little. It usually forces us to realize we aren't the end-all and be-all of our personal theology. That's the error that Fundamentalists commit. They tell themselves the answer has to be simple and they dismiss a complex answer. God makes Himself knowable on a simple level, but that doesn't make God completely knowable.

Eens,
The errors in understanding you seem to commit is your understanding of what the Church is and the efficacy of Grace. Firstly, all Grace is from God through Christ. All Good is from God, so any teaching of good (grace) in any religion is from God and is not seperate from Him. Read Dominous Iesus.
The Catholic Church is MORE than the earthly organization. The Catholic Church is all those in Christ. Unless a mortal sin is committed (purposeful sin of a Grave matter with full intent), a Christian is not seperated from God's grace. Giving Communion to a non-Catholic Christian is allowed when that Christian is a member of the spiritual Catholic Church whe he/she is not seperated 'mortally' from the normative temperal Catholic Church. The temporal Church allows this when persons of reasons believe the bestowing of this Grace, through the Church, works in a unitive fashion, not a divisive manner.

[JP2Iloveyou]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 22 2005, 10:49 PM']is that reffering to ALL popes or this Pope?

just wondering,

sam
[/quote]

All popes. Christ appointed Peter as head of the Church. Whether we agree with the current Holy Father or not, or any Holy Father for that matter, he is the man that the Holy Spirit has chosen to lead the Church at the present time. Christ said "He who hears you, hears me." The Holy Father is divinely protected from teaching error and we are bound to humbly submit our own mind, will, and intellect to the Church, who's visible head on earth is the Holy Father.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

the Holy Father is only Infallibile when speaking ex cathedra on a matter of Faith and Morals definetly defineing Dogma. Last that happened was 1950 and it was the Assumptio of Mary into heaven by Pius XII.

so we should always follow everything the holy father does???

on the left, in an action that scandalized Catholics
everywhere, the Pope kissed the Koran, which
refers to Christians as "pigs" for their belief
in the Holy Trinity and which also says,
that a Muslim goes to Heaven if he
kills an infidel; i.e. a Christian. [img]http://www.sspx.org/images/PopeJPII/PopekissingKoran.jpg[/img]

Popes sin too. Their have been some really bad popes..

i will follow what the pope says except when it contradicts the faith.

[quote]CATHOLIC OBEDIENCE IS ALWAYS...


OBEDIENCE AND THE FAITH

It is the teaching of the Church that obedience is part of justice, one of the four cardinal virtues, which are in turn subordinate to the theological virtues of faith, hope, and charity. Faith is greater than obedience! Therefore, if obedience acts to harm the faith, than a Catholic has a duty not to obey his superior.

"Now sometimes the things commanded by a superior are against God, therefore superiors are not to be obeyed in all things." -- St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church, Summa Theologica II-IIQ. 104

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema." -- Galatians 1:8

THE FAITH AND TRADITION

Now the truths of our faith were recieved even by Jesus himself as a tradition or handing down from his Father.

"Jesus answered them, and said, 'My doctrine is not mine but His that sent me." -- John 7:16

"Jesus said to them, 'Amen, Amen I say to you, the Son cannot do anything of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever He doth, these the Son also doth in like manner." -- John 5:19

"For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father who sent me, He gave me commandment what I should say and what I should speak." -- John 12:49

Likewise, Our Lord hands the Faith down to us as a tradition through those of our lawful superiors who are obedient to the Faith.

"Because the words which thou gavest to me, I have given to them." -- John 17:8

"For I have recieved of the Lord that which also I handed down to you." -- Cor. XI:23


...OBEDIENCE WITHIN TRADITION.


But many Catholics, forgetting that Catholic obedience is relative to the Faith and Tradition, think obedience is an absolute, with only one opposite, disobedience. They are mistaken. True obedience has two opposites...

"Error by defect"--Disobedience

The sin of our first parents and the origin of all sin in the world was a sin of disobedience.

O senseless Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth...who hath hindered you, that you should not obey the truth? -- Galatians 3:1, 5:7


True Obedience

According to the great theologian, St. Thomas Aquinas, true obedience is a balance between twin errors of defect and excess, which are disobedience and false obedience (IIa IIae, Q104, 5 and 3). Today this second error is common among Catholics who, when the follow orders to depart from Tradition, think they are being obedient.

Obedience is the servant of Faith...not of Obedience. -- Spanish Proverb

God must always be obeyed no matter what he may ask of us. Such was the Patriarch Abraham's obedience.

Human superiors need not be obeyed if their orders violate the Faith. Such was the martyrs' obedience.

We ought to obey God...rather than men. -- Acts 5:29

And there is no reason why those who obey God rather than men should be accused of refusing obedience; for if the will of rulers is opposed to the will and the laws of God, these rulers exceed the bounds of their own power and pervert justice, nor can their authority then be valid, which, when there is no justice, is null. -- Leo XIII, Diuturnum Illud.

"Error by excess"--False Obedience

Excessive zeal even for obedience, if indiscreet, will surely lead to a great fall.

Satan's masterstroke is to have succeeded in sowing disobience to all Tradition through obedience (i.e. false obedience). -- Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre


[/quote]

[JP2Iloveyou]

OK. First of all, you have a very limited idea of what is defined as infallible. For example, the letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, though not meeting the requirements you laid out, is infallible. Then Cardinal Ratzinger confirmed this in a letter from the CDF. Secondly, who are you to determine what is sinful and what is not? Show me where there is a Church teaching that it is sinful to kiss the Koran. Perhaps it was sinful for Christ to show mercy and compassion to the woman caught in adultery. Archbishop Lefebvre is excommunicated, thus I couldn't care less what he has to say. You need to learn humility.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

is if a protestant knows of the Catholic Church and rejects it than he is a formal heretic and can't possibly be saved??

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

brother Roger=Formal heretic

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

this was pasted on a traditional Forum.
i agree with it because its infallibile and what the church teaches.

[quote]Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is an infallible dogma of the Roman Catholic Church. Outside the Church, there is no salvation. However, it's up to God to judge who is in the church, and who is out of the church. If one dies in a state of mortal sin, one is outside the church. Nulla Salus. It's relatively cut and dried for Catholics. The issues, arise, though, when we address salvation for pagans, heretics, and schismatics.



A member of these groups must be inside the Church to be saved, while said groups are normally outside the Church. Let us examine the situation with a pagan. The pagan, if he knows of the Catholic church and rejects it, if he makes a conscious decision with full knowledge, will not be saved. If, however, he rejects it without full knowledge of what he is doing, just rejecting it out of hand, or he does not know about the Catholic church, then his salvation is not dependent upon the knowledge of the Church which he could not possibly have, it is based on his adherence to the natural law which is known to every man. (Ie: if he is ignorant of Catholicism, but defrauds his neighbors in business and is a fornicator, then he will not be saved.) If, however, he is a good man, and obeys the natural law, then salvation is possible. It is worth noting, though, that he will not have had access to the sacraments, and thus, in effect, I prefer to say it's "all in God's hands," because we don't know how closely one must adhere to the natural law for salvation.



With regard to heretics, the situation is similar. A distinction must be made between the material heretics in the majority of protestant sects these days, formal heretics, such as Luther, Calvin, etc., and material heretics within the Catholic Church.



The average protestant is, at best, a material heretic. He may have some knowledge of the tenets of his particular sect, but he's not particularly devout, even there, and doesn't really have an anti-Catholic animus. He isn't really aware that he's in any kind of heresy, or of the claims of the Catholic Church. Therefore, I would say that salvation for him is dependent upon how faithfully he practices the Christianity and service to God that he knows, and his adherence to the natural law.



For a formal heretic, we can say that there is no salvation. He has deviated from the doctrine of the Faith, he is aware of it, and he does not possess a spirit of true contrition. Therefore, he is outside of the church and cannot be saved.



Catholic material heretics are still different. They have access to the sacraments, do not have any idea that they are in heresy, and are probably blameless. Chances are they are already, as Catholics, adhering to the natural law, but if they are not, they need to. If they started to get an idea that they might be heterodox, their material heresy would change into formal heresy and they would be in trouble.



I'm tired and can't think straight, but in my current state of mind I can't distinguish any reason why heresy and schism would be treated differently...



Essentially, EENS all boils down to ignorance. Presumably, not being Catholic is a mortal sin. However, ignorance is required for a sin to be mortal, and those who possess this ignorance will be saved, IF they adhere to the natural law. Adhering to the natural law is a very difficult thing to do perfectly, though, and without the grace of the sacraments, I'd say that it is quite difficult to be saved. "If the just man shall barely be saved, how then for the wicked and unrighteous?" It is an exceptionally bad idea to constantly emphasize the "well, it IS possible to be saved when you are not visibly within the church," as the ecumenists do. It is akin to playing Russian roulette with four or five of the chambers loaded and one empty. You may very well be "saved" and not be shot, hitting the empty chamber, but the odds are against it.



I might add that the situation is complicated even more with those who are aware of the existence of the Catholic Church, and perhaps its claims. They are under an obligation to investigate these claims, and many do not do so. I do not claim to suggest how the lack of investigation might impact salvation, but I do suspect that even if a Protestant was very devout and holy, worthy of salvation, perhaps, he or she would still endure time in Purgatory for not investigating the claims of Holy Church, and dying a protestant.



I believe it has been suggested that holy people who are invincibly ignorant of the Catholic Church will be shown the truth, even if it means a visit by an Angel. I do not know about this, and, as one does not hear many accounts of holy protestants being converted to Catholicism by angels, I would understand this to mean that they will be converted, or given the grace of true contrition, at the hour of death.



Baptism of Desire is another facet of EENS. As I understand it, Baptism of Desire applies to those who are convinced of the truth of the Catholic Faith, but have not been baptized yet with water. Presumably, this applies principally to catechumens.



It could also be said that baptism of desire is extended by God to those who die as unbaptized pagans, who were good enough to merit Heaven. Thus, they are "baptized," and may then be categorized within the visible Church, rather than outside it, where there is no salvation.



All in all, I would say that there are many unknowns revolving around the dogma of EENS, but it's all crystal clear to God.



Edit: I wrote this awhile back, and would like to add something. I mention "adherence to the natural law" several times. However, I think that could be better said as "having true contrition for sins," as nobody can adhere perfectly to the natural law, but yet it is written on said law, and known to every man, that true contrition is necessary. One MUST have true contrition for sins to be saved, inside OR outside the confessional. [/quote]

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]Eens,
The errors in understanding you seem to commit is your understanding of what the Church is and the efficacy of Grace. Firstly, all Grace is from God through Christ. All Good is from God, so any teaching of good (grace) in any religion is from God and is not seperate from Him. Read Dominous Iesus.
The Catholic Church is MORE than the earthly organization. The Catholic Church is all those in Christ. Unless a mortal sin is committed (purposeful sin of a Grave matter with full intent), a Christian is not seperated from God's grace. Giving Communion to a non-Catholic Christian is allowed when that Christian is a member of the spiritual Catholic Church whe he/she is not seperated 'mortally' from the normative temperal Catholic Church. The temporal Church allows this when persons of reasons believe the bestowing of this Grace, through the Church, works in a unitive fashion, not a divisive manner.[/quote]

Christians are baptized into christ. but by not being Catholic they commit a mortal sin. So all formal heretics can recieve no grace.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 23 2005, 11:46 AM']Christians are baptized into christ. but by not being Catholic they commit a mortal sin. So all formal heretics can recieve no grace.
[right][snapback]695516[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

That is patently false and unprovable. While formal heretics have separated themselves; material heretics have not.

You have confused the two....insofar as you have done this, you have contradicted 2000 years of Catholic teaching. Sam, study harder....and by study, I don't mean next week, but rather over the rest of your life.

I suggest that you stop with the platitudes and start learning from those who have more knowledge and understanding of these things, ie. The Church.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]suggest that you stop with the platitudes and start learning from those who have more knowledge and understanding of these things, ie. The Church.[/quote]

i do use the church. the infallibile documents of the church. like Unam sanctum.