Laudate_Dominum Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 07:11 AM'] Forgive my candor, but cynicism and skepticism do not equal objectivity or truth. [right][snapback]691537[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: But objectively evaluating the evidence rather than being told one cannot post (or may have one's post "locked") if one suggests that white might really be white rather than the "party line's" black, goes a long way to establishing "truth." : [right][snapback]691545[/snapback][/right] [/quote] While I do think it would be interesting to whittle away at your viewpoint ad nauseam. The general consensus seems to be that you are more of a controversialist than a constructive conversationalist. I certainly got this impression from the few encounters we've had on the boards. Perhaps you are misunderstood and unappreciated, but I don't think this attitude is going to change without some serious adjustments. I'm sure you realize this. It does seem like you have an agenda to discredit the Catholic Faith and in a shameless way. And from our brief dialogues I formed the impression that there may in fact not be a genuine interest in truth, but rather this whole project of yours is a kind of sport. I apologize if I'm wrong.. You are smart enough to realize things, and I'm sure you know the situation much better than I do.. I just wonder what you are thinking.. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 07:15 AM']ADDED: But, of course, Aloyious and CAM will probably tell us that if we've read all the Church's writings as they have, we'd realize that "white" is really "black" if viewed "in context. Are they kin to Karl Keating by any chance??? : [right][snapback]691547[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I've been surprised enough times that I really have no problems giving the Church the benefit of the doubt. I can recall early on in my conversion approaching doctrines which struck me the same way 2 + 2 = 5 would, but after I actually came to grasp the basis of the teaching, and began to truly experience the profundity of the Catholic world-view, I can scarce believe I once thought otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirklawd Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 not allowing catholic vs catholic debate makes perfect sense when considering us lay-people. if you have a problem/disagreement with the church what kind of fool are you to take it up with people like us, who are equally on the bottom rung of the ladder? it does neither you or us any good - unless your true goal is to cause confusion and dissent. if you have a legitimate concern about the catholic teachings and beliefs go to a priest, or a bishop. go to the people that count. ps: theres a good chance you will be told that if you dont want to be catholic to just not be catholic....(*gasp*) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='Sirklawd' date='Aug 20 2005, 09:20 AM']ps: theres a good chance you will be told that if you dont want to be catholic to just not be catholic....(*gasp*) [right][snapback]691619[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I don't think this should ever be the solution.. Maybe some people should admit they aren't Catholic because they don't believe in what the Church is. But I don't think anyone should tell someone not to be Catholic just because they have issues or questions.. That would be showing a disregard for the persons salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted August 20, 2005 Author Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='Sirklawd' date='Aug 20 2005, 09:20 AM']not allowing catholic vs catholic debate makes perfect sense when considering us lay-people.[/quote] RESPONSE: That's right. Lay people are only suppose to believe what they are told to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted August 20, 2005 Author Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 20 2005, 07:45 AM']I've been surprised enough times that I really have no problems giving the Church the benefit of the doubt. I can recall early on in my conversion approaching doctrines which struck me the same way 2 + 2 = 5 would, but after I actually came to grasp the basis of the teaching, and began to truly experience the profundity of the Catholic world-view, I can scarce believe I once thought otherwise. [right][snapback]691554[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: But if you are reality -oriented, you know that 2 + 2 = 4. But I suppose if you are a "true believer," and are willing to put aside common sense, and are told that the party line says that 2 + 2 = 5 (if you view it "in context" ), you just have to accept it. And certainly don't dispute this with another Catholic on Phatmass or you'll be locked out or put on suspension! You certainly don't want to cause "scandal" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 09:53 AM']RESPONSE: But if you are reality -oriented, you know that 2 + 2 = 4. But I suppose if you are a "true believer," and are willing to put aside common sense, and are told that the party line says that 2 + 2 = 5 (if you view it "in context" ), you just have to accept it. And certainly don't dispute this with another Catholic on Phatmass or you'll be locked out or put on suspension! You certainly don't want to cause "scandal" [right][snapback]691650[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Silly goose! I never suggested that I believe 2 + 2 = 4, or that the Church teaches this.. You are fighting a straw man and not even trying to understand what I was saying.. Again, you seem to just like arguing for its own sake.. Why not listen to what people are actually saying instead of just trying to contradict everything all the time.. Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 10:46 AM']RESPONSE: That's right. Lay people are only suppose to believe what they are told to believe. [right][snapback]691644[/snapback][/right] [/quote] I'll play your game. Back that up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariology21 Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 10:46 AM']RESPONSE: That's right. Lay people are only suppose to believe what they are told to believe. [right][snapback]691644[/snapback][/right] [/quote] No. Lay people are called to believe what the Church teaches.....through an informed conscience. Even though we are "just" lay people we still are called to read, and be informed about the Church and Her teachings and WHY She teaches them. We all need to participate in our faith. And part of that is learning about our faith. Yes we may have "problems" with some of the things the Church teaches but if we are serious about our faith we will pray and try to discern and figure out why we have that problem with a certain teaching. And ultimatly that is a growing process used by the Holy Spirit. I have a friend who used to highly disagree with the Church's teaching on contraception. She followed the teaching because she was a devout Catholic and truly believed that what the Church teaches is the Truth. But she prayed, and studied and finally she came to embrace the Church's teaching on it with open arms. But she continued to learn about it....she didn't just "believe" because she was told to. And she didn't just walk away from the Church because of it either. ~Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 Les, please lay out specifically the debate you wish to engage in with this thread or it will be closed. Please do go enjoy yourself at beliefnet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 [b]Littleles[/b], your own position is biased to your personal agenda and goal. Don't point the "biased" finger at one party, while you're doing the samething. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted August 20, 2005 Author Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='Paladin D' date='Aug 20 2005, 12:21 PM'][b]Littleles[/b], your own position is biased to your personal agenda and goal. Don't point the "biased" finger at one party, while you're doing the samething. [right][snapback]691797[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: Yes. But my personal agenda is the establishment of fact and the open exchange of ideas. Not slavish compliance with a party line compelled by preconceptions. I think that's pretty noble. Don't you? : Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted August 20, 2005 Author Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='thedude' date='Aug 20 2005, 10:24 AM']I'll play your game. Back that up. [right][snapback]691687[/snapback][/right] [/quote] RESPONSE: Sure. Read the limits placed on posters by Phatmass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted August 20, 2005 Author Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='mariology21' date='Aug 20 2005, 10:35 AM']No. Lay people are called to believe what the Church teaches.....through an informed conscience. Even though we are "just" lay people we still are called to read, and be informed about the Church and Her teachings and WHY She teaches them. We all need to participate in our faith. And part of that is learning about our faith. Yes we may have "problems" with some of the things the Church teaches but if we are serious about our faith we will pray and try to discern and figure out why we have that problem with a certain teaching. And ultimatly that is a growing process used by the Holy Spirit. I[/quote] RESPONSE: Watch it. Don't discuss your views with catholics on this website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted August 20, 2005 Share Posted August 20, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Aug 20 2005, 01:37 PM']RESPONSE: Yes. But my personal agenda is the establishment of fact and the open exchange of ideas. Not slavish compliance with a party line compelled by preconceptions. I think that's pretty noble. Don't you? : [right][snapback]691825[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Sounds like something you would hear in a political party statment on C-Span. Nice try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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