Chrysologus Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 I recently posted an exerpt from a Catholic Answers' tract about contraception in my buddy info, and a non-Catholic Christian friend who's getting married soon started talking to me about it, and I wasn't very well able to explain how Natural Family Planning was any more licit than the birth control pill if having children is an essential part of sex. It seems that NFP is also trying to frustrate the divine plan. The vague term "open to life" seemed to lose meaning to me, as the openness is simply a matter of statistics, whether you use natural or artificial means. Also, I found that quotes from church fathers were imperfect, because they essentially say that sex's solitary purpose is having children. So, if they were wrong about denying the unitive and pleasureful aspect of sex, why should they be right about the procreative aspect? Of course, I eventually had to confess that I believe this doctrine regardless because the church has spoken definitively about it, but convincing her to be Catholic is even less likely than convincing her that birth control is wrong, so in the end I wasn't able to put up a very good argument. What do you all think? How is NFP better than the pill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 i don't know much about either but i do know that the pill is abortificent...meaning it is having an abortion at an earlier term and phrase, but murder regardless, it kills the baby in the most earliest moments of conception....the pill is wrong and sinful to use for many many reason, but mainly is because its abortificent.... as for NFP, its all natural, now the others can tell you more about it, but its not doing anything but working with Mother nature.... GodBLEss! and keep it up defender! you go boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 in that case, how is nfp better than condoms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 This is a case of birth control versus contraception. Contraception means "against conception" - we had a huge discussion about just this on the old phorum... see http://spike.endore.net/%7Ewww-phatmass-co...p?TOPIC_ID=2439 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Here is a great post by TruthSeeker on this subject (from the thread I posted) explaining why NFP is not contraception. "Actually guys, NFP isn't contraception at all. Contraception is intentionally sterilizing the act of intercourse. This can be done in any number of ways, withdrawal, condoms, the pill etc. NFP is accepting the GOD-GIVEN periods of infertility and having intercourse during these periods because of grave reason not to procreate. WE are not intentionally sterilizing intercourse, we don't have to, God gave us times where women are infertile. JPII said this "Contraception is to be judged so profoundly unlawful as never to be, for any reason, justified. To think or say the contrary is equal to maintaining that in human life, situations may arise in which it is lawful not to recognize God as God" This is what we have to ask ourselves: Are we free to take into our own hands the powers of life, or does that power belong to God alone?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Here is something that I spent a long time typing in: The following is from "The Art of Natural Family Planning" by Kippley: A common question is this: "If unnatural methods and natural methods of birth control have the purpose of avoiding pregnancy, what's the moral difference?" To restate the question, "Does a common purpose make all the means of achieving that purpose morally the same?" (my own thoughts here - of course not, because that plays into the whole "the ends do not justify the means") The huge difference between using NFP and using unnatural methods of birth control is the difference between respecting God's order of creation and not respecting it, between honoring the divinely built-in meaning of the marriage act and contradicting that built-in meaning. More on the difference. Both Paul VI and John Paul II have commented on the difference between using natural and unnatural methods of conception regulation. To make use of the gift of conjugal love while respecting the laws of the generative process means to acknowledge oneself not to be the arbiter of the sources of human life, but rather the minister of the the design established by the Creator. (Pope Paul VI, Jumanae Vitae, n. 13) In 1981, Pope John Paul II explained this further in Familiaris Consortio, a teaching on the Christian family: When couples, by means of recourse to contraception, separate these two meanings that God the creator has inscribed in the being of man and woman and in the dynamisn of their sexual communion, they act as "arbiters" of the divine plan and they "manipulate" and degrade human sexuality and with it themselves and their married partner by altering its value of "total" self-giving. (n. 32.4) On the contrary, when couples use chaste NFP, "they are acting as 'ministers' of God's plan." The Pope went on to note that the difference between contraception and natural family planning ...is a difference which is much wider and deeper than is usually thought, one which involves in the final analysis two irreconcilable concepts of the human person and of human sexuality (n.32.6) With NFP, the Pope noted, there is "shared responsibility and self control" and sexuality is respected, not used as an object. Is It Natural? The question asks, "Is it natural for a married couple to abstain if they feel inclined to have marital relations?" Yes. By NATURAL we mean acting in accord with the created human nature God has given us. NO one is saying that's easy. The trouble is, we have inherited a fallen human nature, so we experience conflict between what we should do - or should not do - and what we sometimes feel inclined to do. All the Ten Commandments are about acting in accord with our created human nature; many daily newspaper stories are about how people are not doing so. However, with the grace of God - and only with his special help - we can live in accord with what it menas to be created in the image and likeness of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 The difference is this: Note: Only when NFP is used in accordance with Church teaching. There is nothing wrong with abstinance in Marriage, and there is nothing wrong with the act of Love in Marriage. Since both are "licit" acts within Marriage, then it doesn't matter if you abstain or have sex during specific times of the womans cycle. You see, even if you didn't us NFP OR contraception, you just decided to make love when you felt like it, there would be times when you did this during her fertile stage AND times when you did it during infertile stage. If you purposly decide to abstain during the fertile stage, for a grave reason, it is no different then accidentally abstaining during a fertile time. To say that NFP is wrong becuase it is attempting to frustrate God's divine plan is to say that ANY sex during an infertile time is a frustration of God's divine plan. Which is a lot of frustration becuase a woman is only actually firtle for 24 hours of the cycle. God knew beforehand that there had to be natural "gaps" between pregnancy. that is why there is a cycle to begin with. HE gave us the cycle. To use the cycle is to use God's plane. If you disreguard what God gave you, and decide to have sex simply for the unitive aspect (contracepting), then you are frustrating God's plan. You should also make it clear to your friend that there indeed are times when NFP can be used to frustrate God's plan. The Church specifically states that NFP should be used to avoid pregnancy only for GRAVE reasons. Note to that chastity isn't reserved for unmarried persons. We need to strive to be chaste even within Marriage. NFP helps to accomplish this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysologus Posted July 17, 2003 Author Share Posted July 17, 2003 Thanks. I had a vague idea that NFP isn't supposed to be used all the time, but I had never heard that you need a "grave reason" to use it. So, what I'm gathering, is that a couple needs a reason to not want to have a baby, not just an idle thought of not being ready or wanting to do the work needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marielapin Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Thanks. I had a vague idea that NFP isn't supposed to be used all the time, but I had never heard that you need a "grave reason" to use it. So, what I'm gathering, is that a couple needs a reason to not want to have a baby, not just an idle thought of not being ready or wanting to do the work needed. Exactly. One of our confessors named several "grave" reasons: medical (diabetes, etc), financial (seriously cannot support a child) and emotional (stress) are just some. We talked with our priest before we got married to confirm that we had grave reasons for delaying pregnancy for a bit, but that reason has currently gone for us, so you guys might be hearing some news from us in a while.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 I have been unsure about the effectiveness of NFP. I'm sorry if I'm a "bad" Catholic by saying this, but until I can see hard-core proof that NFP is effective without a lot of training, I won't use it. I'm a young, married Catholic and my husband and I are so broke that chances of a baby would be extremely detrimental to us. A baby is a gift and deserves to be treated as such; but my husband and I can't afford to treat a baby like a gift right now if we got pregnant. We want kids, but when we can afford them. In my opinion, NFP has too much of a chance of getting me pregnant, and we just can't afford that chance. I'll stick with other methods that are proven extremely effective. I just ask for everyone's prayers that my husband and I can get out of our situation. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) Welcome to phatmass Lil Red! A baby is a gift and deserves to be treated as such; but my husband and I can't afford to treat a baby like a gift right now if we got pregnant.I want you to know that this is a wonderful sentiment. But I hope you realize that the greatest gift you can give your child is the gift of yourself. Being there for them is more precious than any material thing they could possess. (Except perhaps pampers. Very important ) When we found out we were pregnant, my husband also found out that his job as a teacher was probably in jeopardy (turned out it was!) and that he would probably be black listed (turned out he was!). The future looked bleak for the prospect of having anything to give this child at all (including clothes). But we put it in God's hands. Now, I realize that's a very easy thing to say. It has been so hard for me to do! I'm a control freak and must know where everything is, and have the security of knowing where everything is going. But honestly everything has turned out better for us than I could have possibly imagined. We have been given so many things for the baby, that we've actually been able to pass some of them on to other friends. We have truly been blessed. We want kids, but when we can afford them. That was me until I realized that if I waited until that time, I would be old and gray when my kids were graduating high school. There is always a way to afford kids. I wish you knew me a little better, because my biggest issue is a somewhat lacking faith. But God really has been there for us during this time. As of now, my husband will be going to work again as a full-time teacher, with a contract, for a wonderful principal at a great Catholic school. I'm staying home with the baby and we're learning to live on less money, but I couldn't be happier. My baby lacks for nothing and we're both able to be there for him. It has truly been a blessing. I did not use NFP and am currently not using it, but that is due to a hormone condition and I'm hoping to cure that. I guess my point to all this is, please reconsider NFP! And even if you have heard it a thousand times, it really is true: you will be truly blessed when you let God take things over. He will never give you more than you can handle. God Bless you and your husband! Edited February 20, 2012 by Lil Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 (edited) I don't want to advise people how to sin, but Red if you're using contraceptives PLEASE use condoms and not the pill which can be abortofacient. Edited February 20, 2012 by Lil Red Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted July 17, 2003 Share Posted July 17, 2003 Hardcore proof is out there if you look. My parents have used it for over 20 years and have 3 kids. Anna, and her family are using it. Despite there relatively large fam. that doesn't mean NFP isn't "working". NFP can work in either direction (to achieve or avoid pregnancy). I've been married a long 2 months, that's two cycles fyi, and it's working for us (to avoid for now). Statistics are thus: 99% effective when used wisely (that's not goofing around in stage 2 -which you'll learn about ). Erika and I took 2 classes (for a tiny fee - much less than regular usage of condoms, etc.), and it's pretty simple. You get the hang of it. Oh, not to mention the ulteriour benefits of NFP. Besides avoiding (or achieving) pregnancy, NFP promotes good partnership skills. It promotes communication, teamwork, LOVE, and LIFE. NFP users are MUCH less likely to get divorced than those who contracept (try 5% instead of 50+%). God bless you, and I hope that you choose NFP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 The pill kills your unborn children, condoms physically separate you from your husband frustrating the unitive function of marriage, IUDs do not prevent pregnancies. There is nothing better for a marriage than natural family planning. It is easy, effective, loving, and fun. Its like dating but with fringe benefits. The most important ingredient to raising a child is love, not money. There is always help available for pregnant moms. Where there is a will, God provides the way. mother of 16, 17, 18, 18, 20. 3 were gifts from God, 2 were simply gifts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted July 18, 2003 Share Posted July 18, 2003 But I hope you realize that the greatest gift you can give your child is the gift of yourself. Being there for them is more precious than any material thing they could possess. (Except perhaps pampers. Very important ) There is always a way to afford kids. Okay, I don't want to sound like "poor me, I have a hard life"; but a baby right now would be an extreme financial hardship. I don't want to get into too much detail, but as far as material things, I'm not talking about pampers or cribs, etc. I'm talking about a roof over our heads; paying rent and other bills (btw, not like mag subscriptions); paying for food, etc. I know that there are programs out there to help low-income families, but I won't be one of those people. And even if I were, my husband isn't. I would love to use NFP, I really would, but I can't chance it. I thank you all for your comments and ask for your continued prayers that my situation improves. P.S. Hyperdulia, we are using condoms, not the Pill. The Pill has too many hormone side effects for me besides everything else about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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