Extra Eclesia Nulla....

[ReinnieR]

does it matter?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 18 2005, 09:12 PM']stop twisting my words. i never said it would affect the validity of the sacrement. I think that sacrement is valid. the  post-Conciliar Church consistently downgrades the reality and gravity of mortal sin, the benefits of confessing venial sins, the graces to be obtained from frequent confession, and the necessity of doing penance.
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Since it does not affect the validity of the sacrament, then you have no excuse for not going. The problem lies in your attitude - ("I refuse to receive the Sacrament of Penance unless the priest is up to my standards")

This "post-Conciliar Church" tripe is a lot of meaningless drivel. The Church is the same One Holy Catholic Church that was founded by Christ. The teachings on mortal sin have not changed (nor the need fopr the Sacrament of Penance). You're blaming abuses or falsehoods of individuals on the Church Herself, and using this as an excuse to pridefully avoid the sacraments.

I know I sound harsh here, but it's past time someone slapped some sense into you. From your posts it is clear you are wallowing in self-righteous pride.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Aug 18 2005, 09:12 PM']stop twisting my words. i never said it would affect the validity of the sacrement. I think that sacrement is valid. the  post-Conciliar Church consistently downgrades the reality and gravity of mortal sin, the benefits of confessing venial sins, the graces to be obtained from frequent confession, and the necessity of doing penance.
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Ive experienced just the opposite. Ive read and heard from the Church many times the gravity of mortal sin, about penance, etc.

If you purposely look for priests who are modernistic, then of course this would be the conclusion you come to.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]I know I sound harsh here, but it's past time someone slapped some sense into you. From your posts it is clear you are wallowing in self-righteous pride.

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this is true im very proud. But that is not why i don't go to confession.
it is not easy to have the assurance of a valid absolution, given the fact that the post-Conciliar Church consistently downgrades the reality and gravity of mortal sin, the benefits of confessing venial sins, the graces to be obtained from frequent confession, and the necessity of doing penance.


Post-Conciliar priest may or may not trivialize of their sins.

im not going to take that risk and than have to doubt wether or not im in a stae of grace.

[brendan1104]

Comparisons of Confession:

The traditional form has private confession, and extraordinary general absolution in emergencies.

Overview: Sign of the Cross, Bless me Father etc. Confession of sins.
Priest's advice, act of contrition, absolution.

Pre-Actual Absolution Prayers.

May God almighty have mercy on you, and forgive you your sins, and bring you to life everlasting. Amen.

May the almighty and merciful Lord grant you pardon, absolution, and remission of all your sins. Amen.

Actual traditional formula of absolution.

MAY OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST ABSOLVE THEE AND I BY HIS AUTHORITY ABSOLVE THEE FROM EVERY BOND OF EXCOMMUNICATION SUSPENSION AND INTERDICT AS FAR AS I AM ABLE AND THOU HAST NEED. MOREOVER I ABSOLVE THEE IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER AND OF THE SON AND OF THE HOLY GHOST.

It should be understood, all that's neccessary is "I absolve you, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost/Spirit."

The new rite, which has private confession, the communal form, and extraordinary general absolution, from: [url="http://www.carr.org/~meripper/faith/reconcil.htm:"]http://www.carr.org/~meripper/faith/reconcil.htm:[/url]

"After being welcomed by the priest, the penitent makes the sign of the cross saying: "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen."

The priest may read a short Scripture passage, then the penitent states the time since the last confession and confesses the sins recalled during the examination of conscience, including all mortal sins.

After the sins are confessed, the priest counsels the penitent and asks the penitent to do a penance, usually some prayers or a charitable work. The penitent accepts the penance.

The penitent expresses sorrow for sin in his or her own words, or by saying an Act of Contrition, or by saying short psalm of sorrow.

The priest then gives absolution saying:

"God the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."

The penitent replies, "Amen."
The priest then says, "Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good."
The penitent replies, "His mercy endures forever."
The penitent is then dismissed by the priest in the peace of Christ."

It's been my experience to witness illicit and invalid general absolutions given at communal services, without private confession.

I've seen several weird things at these: when they are not celebrated as they should be.

And I've also had priests say: I forgive you, rather than absolve you.

[Aloysius]

it doesn't matter. the Church teaches that all the priest must do is say the right words and have the intention to absolve you of your sins. he doesn't even have to have the intention to absolve them as mortal sins or absolve them as venial sins, he simply must have the intention to absolve them.

if a priest does the formula wrong, call him on it, ask him if he will do it right. don't be afraid of that.

and yes we know there are abuses of general absolution, illicit and in many cases invalid.

you should be aware, however, that there is a traditional doctrine of the Church whereby if there is some problem inherent to the confession that you were unaware of, the principle of Ecclesia Supplet applies, whereby the Church spiritually provides any missing elements of the sacrament.

this applies to no other sacrament. if you were to be aware of something wrong with the confession, you would be obliged to go to confession again and receive the sacrament licitly. but if you are unaware, the Absolution is made valid by the Church supplying that which is necessary to make the Sacrament valid.

[brendan1104]

"... the post-Conciliar Church consistently downgrades the reality and gravity of mortal sin, the benefits of confessing venial sins, the graces to be obtained from frequent confession, and the necessity of doing penance. "


i agree with this.

priests have said to me, upon confession mortal sins,

"don't worry about it"

"that's not sin".

so....


but you're right, all that's needed is the proper intention, and a validly ordained priest, as well as a truly contrite penitent.

[qfnol31]

Doesn't matter what the Priest says, as long as you have absolution.

If you die tomorrow, much better to be in a state of grace than a state of mortal sin, no matter where your loyalties lie.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

fa shaw

[brendan1104]

no kidding.

however, when in doubt, you cant go through with something.

that too, is the Church's teaching....

i agree with you tho.

[StColette]

I'm starting to believe this thread should be moved to debate table

[Aloysius]

I love the Latin Indult Church I go to. I used to get yelled at by priests for wanting to go to confession weekly, and I'd always argue "but the pope goes weekly!" and they'd always still be like "you're being too scrupulous" (a traditional word they like to steal and use to mean you should never be sorry for sin)

but now, every sunday starting a half hour before mass and ending at the sanctus they offer confessions... the lines are really looooong too which I always have mixed feelings about... on one hand "great! all these people receiving sacramental grace!" and on the other hand "great, this is a long line... am I gonna make it before the Sanctus? am I gonna end up in the confessional during the homily? o man it's Father Myers! he has awesome homilies... please don't have me end up in the soundproof confessional during his homily!"

lol

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='brendan1104' date='Aug 18 2005, 09:55 PM']"... the post-Conciliar Church consistently downgrades the reality and gravity of mortal sin, the benefits of confessing venial sins, the graces to be obtained from frequent confession, and the necessity of doing penance. "
i agree with this.

priests have said to me, upon confession mortal sins,

"don't worry about it"

"that's not sin".

so....
but you're right, all that's needed is the proper intention, and a validly ordained priest, as well as a truly contrite penitent.
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The Church is not doing that. Misguided priests are not the Church.

[qfnol31]

Actually, there shouldn't be too much to doubt. I've been told I might be scrupulous, or putting God in a box, but I've never been denied absolution.

And if my Confessions didn't stay between me and the Priest, and you knew both of us, you would understand better how much this means.

[qfnol31]

I'm surprised how little I get told not to go so often. I just mix up the Priests when that becomes a concern.