thessalonian Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 I have a question for you to think about. Can one be in the state of mortal sin and still have faith. For me the answer from the Catholic perspective has to be yes. But can you think of any biblical support for this? The scriptures say in luke 22 that Jesus prayed that Peter's faith would not fail. He then said his disciples would fall away. Now every time "fall away" is used in the new testament it appears to mean fall away from following Christ. Jesus also tells his disciples in Luke 10:32 if you deny me before men I will deny you before my father in heaven. Peter denied him 3 times of course. So was Peter in mortal sin at that point. It seems pretty serious to me. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 (edited) If you look at this verse: " but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers." [31-32] Jesus' prayer for Simon's faith and the commission to strengthen his brothers anticipates the post-resurrectional prominence of Peter in the first half of Acts, where he appears as the spokesman for the Christian community and the one who begins the mission to the Gentiles (Acts 10-11). Christ of course already knew that Peter was going to deny him. The "once you have turned back" makes me think that Christ was referring to what Peter would do after he denied Christ. That though he denied Him three times he returned back to Christ and would be a pillar of strenge for his brothers. 31 Then Jesus said to them, "This night all of you will have your faith in me shaken, for it is written: 'I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be dispersed'; but after I have been raised up, I shall go before you to Galilee." I don't believe that Christ was saying that they would fall away from Him completely. Especially since all of the 12, except Judas, continued to preach the Gospel after the death of Christ. I believe what He was referring to was just that "night" that they would be afraid for their lives, like Peter was, and they would go and hide. So altogether the answer from me would have to be Yes. Especially from personal experience. If I'm in the state of mortal sin, it is my faith and love for God that leads me to be sorrowful for what I have done against Him and it is that which makes me know that I need to go to Confession and ask God to forgive the crimes I have committed against Him. If faith failed while in the state of mortal sin, then what would make a person want to be forgiven and be back in the good graces of God? Edited August 17, 2005 by StColette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 17, 2005 Author Share Posted August 17, 2005 (edited) I agree with everything you have said. The difficulty I am having in all of it is showing a Protestant that Peter could still have faith (that your faith may not fail) and yet be in a state of mortal sin (if you deny me before men I will deny you before My Father). Mortal sin eventually leads to a loss of faith according to Church teaching. But the first mortal sin does not cause a loss of faith neccessarily. It does seem to me that that there is a problem with the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine (that is the context of my question, someone is using that phrase "prayed for you that your faith may not fail" to indicate OSAS applies to Peter's denials) in that if Peter was already saved why did Jesus have to pray that his faith might not fail.? Further does that imply that the other's faith did fail since he did not pray specifically for them? Just thinking out loud. coments welcome. Edited August 17, 2005 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Summa Theologica Objection 5. Further, the object of a theological virtue is the last end. Now the other theological virtues, namely faith and hope, are not done away by one mortal sin, in fact they remain though lifeless. Therefore charity can remain without a form, even when a mortal sin has been committed. Reply to Objection 5. Charity denotes union with God, whereas faith and hope do not. Now every mortal sin consists in aversion from God, as stated above (Gen. ad lit. viii, 12). Consequently every moral sin is contrary to charity, but not to faith and hope, but only certain determinate sins, which destroy the habit of faith or of hope, even as charity is destroyed by every moral sin. Hence it is evident that charity cannot remain lifeless, since it is itself the ultimate form regarding God under the aspect of last end as stated above (23, 8). ------------------------------ Man can do naturally good acts in mortal sin, but can he do supernaturally good acts? (All supernatural acts are good.) In His infinite mercy God keeps the virtues of faith and hope in the soul of the sinner unless the sinner commits a sin against these virtues. Thus faith and hope remain in the soul of the person in mortal sin in a preternatural state, existing without their subject, which is grace. These virtues are true supernatural virtues, but as they are not enlivened by charity, the virtue incompatible with mortal sin, they are not meritorious. [url="http://www.cts.org.au/2000/mortalsin.htm"]http://www.cts.org.au/2000/mortalsin.htm[/url] ------------------------------------------------ 1815 The gift of faith remains in one who has not sinned against it. [Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1545] But "faith apart from works is dead": [Jas 2:26] when it is deprived of hope and love, faith does not fully unite the believer to Christ and does him a living member of his Body. ----------------------------------------------- Q. 468. Why are Faith, Hope and Charity called virtues? A. Faith, Hope and Charity are called virtues because they are not mere acts, but habits by which we always and in all things believe God, hope in Him, and love Him. Q. 469. What kind of virtues are Faith, Hope and Charity? A. Faith, Hope and Charity are called infused theological virtues to distinguish them from the four moral virtues -- Prudence, Justice, Fortitude and Temperance. Q. 470. Why do we say the three theological virtues are infused and the four moral virtues acquired? A. We say the three theological virtues are infused; that is, poured into our souls, because they are strictly gifts of God and do not depend upon our efforts to obtain them, while the four moral virtues -- Prudence, Justice, Fortitude and Temperance -- though also gifts of God, may, as natural virtues, be acquired by our own efforts. Q. 472. What mortal sins are opposed to Faith? A. Atheism, which is a denial of all revealed truths, and heresy, which is a denial of some revealed truths, and superstition, which is a misuse of religion, are opposed to Faith. [url="http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-10.htm"]http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/faith/bc3-10.htm[/url] ------------------------------------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted August 17, 2005 Author Share Posted August 17, 2005 St. C - Thank you for that. It was just what I needed! Amen, Adam still had faith after he fell! Amen, faith without works is dead. God bless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 [quote name='thessalonian' date='Aug 17 2005, 05:31 PM']St. C - Thank you for that. It was just what I needed! Amen, Adam still had faith after he fell! Amen, faith without works is dead. God bless [right][snapback]688134[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Amen And glad that helped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now