True charity

[traditional]

Check out this website:

[color=red] We don't link to pretend Catholic sites [/color]

There is the dogma with the authority of the Popes while Universal Salvation is extirpated DEFINITIVELY, once and for all. RC

Edited August 15, 2005 by cmotherofpirl

[Quietfire]

I liked this one the best.

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)

Thanks.
Good quotes.

Pax

[dspen2005]

the website is maintained by presumably sedevacantists. look at the list of Popes -- it stops @ Pius XII, coincidence? I think not.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Aug 15 2005, 07:19 AM']I liked this one the best.

Saint Augustine (died A.D. 430): "No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honor, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church." (Sermo ad Caesariensis Ecclesia plebem)

Thanks.
Good quotes.

Pax
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I love that quote too.

[MC Just]

When I read quotes like this it makes it very hard for me to believe. "Muslims, Jews, hindus, heretics etc....

can all go to heaven if they live "good lives". Outside the church, without Christ? I know people are probably going to be all over me for saying this, but there are just so many quotes from the early chruch including in the scriptures that say there is no salvation without Christ in his Catholic Church.

[MC Just]

oops

Edited August 15, 2005 by MC Just

[Quietfire]

[quote name='dspen2005' date='Aug 15 2005, 08:35 AM']the website is maintained by presumably sedevacantists.  look at the list of Popes -- it stops @ Pius XII, coincidence?  I think not.
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I noticed that too.
It isnt a coincidence considering the source.




Pax

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Aug 15 2005, 08:46 AM']When I read quotes like this it makes it very hard for me to believe. "Muslims, Jews, hindus, heretics etc....

can all go to heaven if they live "good lives".  Outside the church, without Christ?  I know people are probably going to be all over me for saying this, but there are just so many quotes from the early chruch including in the scriptures that say there is no salvation without Christ in his Catholic Church.
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The Second Vatican Council held that those "outsiders" attain salvation through the Church and the sacrifice of Christ. It laid out no standards for what an invincibly ignorant person must do to attain salvation, meaning that it could possibly be an extremely rare occurance. None of the quotes in the link deal with the invincibly ignorant. It also neglects the fact that many of the Fathers quoted were supporters of baptism of desire and blood, ect.

The definition of EENS in the universal Catechism is not a Vatican II invention. [url="http://www.catholicfiles.com/againstfeeneyism.html#prev2"]Read the writings of Pope Bl. Pius IX and Pope Pius XII[/url]. Prior to Pope Bl. Pius IX, I can only find one Church Father/Papal quote dealing vaguely with the invincibly ignorant (it was not discussed extensively until the discovery of the New World); and that is from St. Gregory of Nazianzus, Doctor of the Church:
[quote]“Even before he was of our fold, he was ours. His character made him one of us. For, as many of our own are not with us, whose life alienates them from the common body, so, many of those without are on our side, whose character anticipates their faith, and need only the name of that which indeed they possess. My father was one of these, an alien shoot, but inclined by his life towards us."[/quote]

[Mikhail]

[quote]"I know people are probably going to be all over me for saying this, but there are just so many quotes from the early chruch including in the scriptures that say there is no salvation without Christ in his Catholic Church."

[/quote]

Could you show where it says that in the Bible or the early church writings? Without Christ, one can not be saved, but it says nothing of Church, especially not a non-existant Catholic church.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Aug 16 2005, 12:25 PM']Could you show where it says that in the Bible or the early church writings? Without Christ, one can not be saved, but it says nothing of Church, especially not a non-existant Catholic church.
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Prithee do tell, what non-existant Catholic church are you referring to and why do you believe it is 'non-existant'?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Mikhail' date='Aug 16 2005, 01:25 PM']Could you show where it says that in the Bible or the early church writings? Without Christ, one can not be saved, but it says nothing of Church, especially not a non-existant Catholic church.
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There is a whole weath of patristic sources that say one cannot be saved outside the Church. The question here is who is [i]inside[/i] and who is [i]outside[/i] the Church. That is a topic that has no been widely discussed until recently, with all sources pointing towards the possibility of salvation for those invincibly ignorant of the Church and/or the Gospel - although they are saved through the Church (not outside) and because of Christ's sacrifice.

Edited August 16, 2005 by thedude

[Brother Adam]

There is a reason why we say that the fullness of the means of salvation subsists (as opposed to exists) in the Catholic Church. The Church is inclusive rather than exclusive. If you can't accept that, than you are declaring your own pious opinion to the world rather than the teaching of Christ teaching (CT 5). Listening to Fr. Larry Richards "The Truth" might be in order.

[Era Might]

I cited this on another thread, and it bears citation here:

[quote]The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.

However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.

--Letter of the Holy Office under Pope Pius XII to Cardinal Cushing, correcting some errors of the Feenyites

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFFEENY.HTM[/url][/quote]

And, of course, there is Pope Pius IX:

[quote]There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace.

--Encyclical Letter "Quanto Conficiamur Moerore"[/quote]

Note well that both of these are long before the Second Vatican Council, not that that's even relevant.

Edited August 16, 2005 by Era Might

[Mikhail]

I mean, how could Jesus address a Catholic church that didn't exist. The Catholic church wasn't called Catholic until several centuries after Christ. Of course, you Catholics are going to launch into your interpretation of scripture that defends your point and when I counter that it's the wrong interpretation you'll say that only the Church has the right to interpret the scripture which is circular reasoning because you're using your interpretation to defend your right to interpret. Therego, this discussion will go nowhere.

[Era Might]

[quote]Where there is Christ Jesus, there is the Catholic Church

--St. Ignatius of Antioch, AD 110[/quote]

That's only 20 years after the death of the last Apostle, St. John. And there's no evidence that St. Ignatius was making up a new term. He was simply calling the Church what it was called, the Catholic (ie, Universal) Church.

Be that as it may, the name is not important. The Church could have easily come to be known as the "Orthodox" Church, or just the "One Holy Church". The four distinguishing characteristics of the Church, defined at Niceae, are One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.

The Church, as history attests, is that which was delivered by the Apostles to their successors, united in the ministry of the Bishop of Rome.

Edited August 16, 2005 by Era Might