Prayer

[geetarplayer]

ayed, I see what you have been getting at. Very interesting line of questioning! B)

-Mark

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, The Most merciful , The Most gracious

I hope all Phatmass members and readers are in good conditiond

(Phatcatholic) :”i think that Jesus would pray for the same reason we would pray today to give thanks and glory to God “.

1-(Ayed) :So, Jesus is a human being like us whorships his Creator Who has chosen him as a prophet which entails that Jesus is not a God .

(Phatcatholic)” Jesus is God”

2-(Ayed):How come a God pray to a God ?

(Phatcathoilc):” the begotten Son of the Father”

3-(Ayed) Do you mean that Allah(the Father) married to the Virgin Maryam?Or do you mean that Allah has begotten Jesus(Allah above all that is said)?Could you please shed some light on this issue ?(Phatcatholic):”He was singularly devoted to the Father”

4-(Ayed): Jesus is definitly submissive to His Creator , Allah .So, Jesus is a dependent and in need of Allah .Thus, Jesus is not a God .

(phatcatholic):”although he never sinned, he was tempted just as we are”

5-(Ayed) :If so, then why did he pray ?

(phatcatholic):”…Although he utlimately always followed the will of the Father, He sought guidance just as we do.

6-(Ayed) : I do agree with you on this point that Jesus does seek guidance just as we do .Thus, Jesus not a God at all.

(Phatcatholic):”…i do think that in his perfect humanity he asked for strength from the Father, as we all do. The burden of all man's sins is a heavy burden inDouche!

7-(Ayed)You are frankly stating that Jesus is as you and me not a God since he does ask for strength from Allah.Consequently, Jesus is not a coetaneous nor coequal nor coeternal to Allah.

(Phatcatholic):”some say that, in the times when Jesus is praying, that this is actually his human nature praying to his divine nature.

8-(Ayed): You said”some say that” which is not your own opinion, is it?

Kindly, read the following which you have mentioned above :

“ …his human nature praying to his divine nature” apparently contradicts with “he utlimately always followed the will of the Father”?

How come? Self-deification!?Did Jesus pray to himself?Did he seek for strength from himself?

(Phatcatholic)”but, i think this could be a dangerous way to understand Jesus in prayer. i don't think the two natures of Christ can be divided in such a way”

9-(Ayed) :Mr.Phatcatholic, did Jesus declare that he is of associated two natures?Or did Allah(the Father in your doctrine) state that Jesus is of associated two natures ?Kinly, quote any verse of your holy books to prove this issue?

(Phatcatholic):”Jesus's perfect, 100% humanity and his perfect, 100% divinity combine to form one Person, the Second Person in the Holy Trinity”

10-(Ayed): You are about to attach Jesus to the holonym”Trinity” , are not you?

If Jesus is of a divine form and never sins , then why does he pray?

Facts: It stands to reason and is really accepted that when one is praying , then this pray is a type of adoration .Since Jesus does pray , glorify and seek strength from Allah , then this entails that Jesus is really a prophet , one of Allah’s submissive creatures.

Accept my rememberances .

ayed4all@hotmail.com

Edited November 27, 2003 by ayed

[sista2b]

ayed,

i don't think this has been pointed out maybe it has and i missed it, but you asked if prayer was the same as worship. Not always. We pray to saints, but we don't worship them, we ask them to pray for us. We know they are close to God, if we wanna get in good w/ someone we talk to thier friends and sometimes thier mom (Mary), moms tend to be pretty convincing.

But, when we pray to God, then yes we do worship Him of course.

Happy Thanksgiving!!!!

[Aloysius]

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. There is one God. All three are infinite. 3 times infinity equals infinity. One Infinite God times three persons equals one infinite God.

Jesus was on Earth. Jesus is. The Father is. The Holy Spirit is.

and Jesus spoke to His Heavenly Father, because Jesus is distinct from His heavenly Father, yet they are both the same. He is full God and full man. All men are given a guardian angel, yet no angel could preside over God, and thus the Holy Spirit is seen as the guardian Angel of Jesus, while the Holy Spirit is God and not angel. Jesus Christ infinitely loves His Father, His Father infinitely loves Him. While Jesus was on earth, they expressed this love through human words, as Christ had taken on humanity and was lifting it up. Jesus is one with the Father, the Father is one with the Spirit, the Spirit is one with Jesus, etc. etc. etc. Yet all three are distinct. They are coequal, as far as i'm concerned they're all "Allah". When translating who God is to our religion, we wouldn't say the Father is Allah, then Jesus is a God and the Spirit is a God, we would say all three are one in the same Allah, the great Yahweh I AM, the definition of existence, the definition of Love.

As God has always existed, for He is the great I AM, and also God is love, before He created all things He must have loved something. THerefore, becuase of the very definition of God, He has always existed in at least two persons, the Father infinitely loving the Son, and the Son infinitely loving the Father. Because if that were not true at some point God, who is always the same, would have had nothing to Love <unless He had some sort of selfish love, yet selfishness would be sinful, and God is immaculate, perfect, SINLESS>. And so those two persons, by the very nature of God, must have existed. and they must have infinitely loved each other. that infinite love between them is so strong that it in itself is a new person, the Holy Spirit.

now that i've gone through my little talk about the Holy Trinity, i'll say it again. While the Son was human, He expressed His infinite Love for His Father through His divinity as He has done from before all things came to be, and He also expressed His infinite Love for His Father through His humanity, through Human words.

Praying is loving God. It can take the form of offering yourself to God, worshipping God, talking to God, and/or just soaking in the presence of God.

God the Son infinitely Loves God the Father. THerefore God the Son is always praying to God the Father. God the Father infinitely loves God the Son, therefore God the Father is always praying to God the Son. This love is always expressed through the Divine Persons, both infinitely the same, and infinitely distinct. Yet God the Son, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, took on flesh, became man, as Jesus Christ. While man, Christ expressed this prayer which He infinitely and always gives to His Father, through human words and human prayers because He was perfectly human.

hope that helps. if it doesn't, maybe i'll draw a diagram. B)

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

i'll try the best i can to answer ur questions, as follows:

(Phatcatholic) :”i think that Jesus would pray for the same reason we would pray today to give thanks and glory to God “.

1-(Ayed) :So, Jesus is a human being like us whorships his Creator Who has chosen him as a prophet which entails that Jesus is not a God .

one cannot extend this logic to the conclusions you have drawn based on my statement. first off, the Father and the Son--two persons in the Holy Trinity--glorify each other. so, just b/c i say Jesus prays to give glory to God, this does not mean that he is necessarily human. secondly, just b/c the Son prays to the Father, this does not mean that he "worships the Creator" from an inferior position like we do. prayer does not always entail worship. prayer also shows love, and the Father and the Son love each other with eternal abundance. thirdly, nothing about my statement should lead one to infer that the Father chose the Son to be a prophet, therefore your logic that "Jesus is not a God" collapses here.

(Phatcatholic)” Jesus is God”

2-(Ayed):How come a God pray to a God ?

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

i'll try the best i can to answer ur questions, as follows:

(Phatcatholic) : i think that Jesus would pray for the same reason we would pray today to give thanks and glory to God.

1-(Ayed) :So, Jesus is a human being like us whorships his Creator Who has chosen him as a prophet which entails that Jesus is not a God .

one cannot extend this logic to the conclusions you have drawn based on my statement. first off, the Father and the Son--two persons in the Holy Trinity--glorify each other. so, just b/c i say Jesus prays to give glory to God, this does not mean that he is necessarily human. secondly, just b/c the Son prays to the Father, this does not mean that he "worships the Creator" from an inferior position like we do. prayer does not always entail worship. prayer also shows love, and the Father and the Son love each other with eternal abundance. thirdly, nothing about my statement should lead one to infer that the Father chose the Son to be a prophet, therefore your logic that "Jesus is not a God" collapses here.

(Phatcatholic)” Jesus is God”

2-(Ayed):How come a God pray to a God ?

logistically, the only explanation i can give is in itself quite complicated. it is basically this: even tho the Father is God and the Son is God, they are two different Persons in the Holy Trinity and are therefore able to pray to one another. as to why they would pray to each other, Alo explains this well. I also hold to my conclusion that Jesus, in his perfect humanity, is justified in and able to pray to the Father for strength.

(Phatcathoilc):” the begotten Son of the Father”

3-(Ayed) Do you mean that Allah(the Father) married to the Virgin Maryam?Or do you mean that Allah has begotten Jesus(Allah above all that is said)?Could you please shed some light on this issue ?

I don't know a "Virgin Maryam." If you are referring to the Virgin Mary, she is the Mother of God, Jesus. However, she is not married to the Father. As to what it means to be "begotten" i turn to the Fathers of the Church, who explain it much more efficiently than I:

Justin Martyr

"God begot before all creatures a beginning, who was a certain rational power from himself and whom the Holy Spirit calls . . . sometimes the Son

. . . sometimes Lord and Word. . . . We see things happen similarly among ourselves, for whenever we utter some word, we beget a word, yet not by any cutting off, which would diminish the word in us when we utter it. We see a similar occurrence when one fire enkindles another. It is not diminished through the enkindling of the other, but remains as it was" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 61 [A.D. 155]).

Gregory the Wonderworker

"There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Lactantius

"When we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate them, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father, since the name of ‘Father’ cannot be given without the Son, nor can the Son be begotten without the Father. . . . [T]hey both have one mind, one spirit, one substance; but the former [the Father] is as it were an overflowing fountain, the latter [the Son] as a stream flowing forth from it. The former as the sun, the latter as it were a ray [of light] extended from the sun" (Divine Institutes 4:28–29 [A.D. 307]).

for more of the Church Fathers on "the only begotten Son," go here.

(Phatcatholic):”He was singularly devoted to the Father”

4-(Ayed): Jesus is definitly submissive to His Creator , Allah .So, Jesus is a dependent and in need of Allah .Thus, Jesus is not a God .

The Son can be devoted to the Father w/o being "submissive." The Father and the Son are dependent on each other in the sense that if one Person ceases to be, the others cease to be --and-- b/c everything the Son has comes from the Father. However, Jesus is NOT dependent on the Father in the sense that he is inferior to Him. They are both God

(phatcatholic):”although he never sinned, he was tempted just as we are”

5-(Ayed) :If so, then why did he pray ?

You don't have to be a sinner in order to pray. Mary and the Saints, who are in heaven and therefore sinless, pray to God on our behalf. Actually, some say (and i would agree, that i know not if this is official doctrine) that everyone who is in heaven, and therefore sinless, is in a constant state of prayer and worship to God.

(phatcatholic):”…Although he utlimately always followed the will of the Father, He sought guidance just as we do.

6-(Ayed) : I do agree with you on this point that Jesus does seek guidance just as we do .Thus, Jesus not a God at all.

like i said earlier, i think it is plausable to say that Jesus prayed to the Father for Guidance w/o concluding that He is not God. Although his is perfectly God, he is also perfectly human, and therefore subject to temptation. This could be a cause to seek guidance or strength. But, this is no way negates his equality w/ the Father.

(Phatcatholic):”…i do think that in his perfect humanity he asked for strength from the Father, as we all do. The burden of all man's sins is a heavy burden inDouche!

7-(Ayed)You are frankly stating that Jesus is as you and me not a God since he does ask for strength from Allah.Consequently, Jesus is not a coetaneous nor coequal nor coeternal to Allah.

As i said before, i don't necessarily agree that yours is the logical conclusion.

(Phatcatholic):”some say that, in the times when Jesus is praying, that this is actually his human nature praying to his divine nature.

8-(Ayed): You said”some say that” which is not your own opinion, is it? Kindly, read the following which you have mentioned above: “ …his human nature praying to his divine nature” apparently contradicts with “he utlimately always followed the will of the Father”? How come? Self-deification!?Did Jesus pray to himself?Did he seek for strength from himself?

You are correct in assuming that this is not my "opinion"--or better put, i would not explain it this way, like some try to do. Also, my disagreement w/ this statement does not come from the "apparent contradiction" that you see. it instead comes from the implied division of Jesus's two natures (the human praying to the divine). This division, of course, can never be since Jesus is both human and divine in perfect unity.

(Phatcatholic)”but, i think this could be a dangerous way to understand Jesus in prayer. i don't think the two natures of Christ can be divided in such a way”

9-(Ayed) :Mr.Phatcatholic, did Jesus declare that he is of associated two natures?Or did Allah(the Father in your doctrine) state that Jesus is of associated two natures ?Kinly, quote any verse of your holy books to prove this issue?

below is an excerpt from the "Incarnation" entry in the newadvent.org online Catholic encyclopedia. its gives the witness both from Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition on the "hypostatic union"--or-- the perfect unity of Jesus' human and divine natures:

A. The Witness of Holy Writ

St. John says: "The Word was made flesh" (i, 14), that is, He Who was God in the Beginning (i, 2), and by Whom all things were created (i. 3), became Man. According to the testimony of St. Paul, the very same Person, Jesus Christ, "being in the form of God [en morphe Theou hyparxon] . . . emptied himself, taking the form of a servant [morphen doulou labon]" (Phil., ii, 6, 7). It is always one and the same Person, Jesus Christ, Who is said to be God and Man, or is given predicates that denote Divine and human nature. The author of life (God) is said to have been killed by the Jews (Acts, iii, 15); but He could not have been killed were He not Man.

B. Witness of Tradition

The early forms of the creed all make profession of faith, not in one Jesus Who is the Son of God and in another Jesus Who is Man and was crucified, but "in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only-begotten Son of God, Who became Man for us and was crucified". The forms vary, but the substance of each creed invariably attributes to one and the same Jesus Christ the predicates of the Godhead and of man (see Denzinger, "Enchiridion"). Franzelin (thesis xvii) calls special attention to the fact that, long before the heresy of Nestorius, according to Epiphanius (Ancorat., II, 123, in P. G., XLII, 234), it was the custom of the Oriental Church to propose to catechumens a creed that was very much more detailed than that proposed to the faithful; and in this creed the catechumens said: "We believe . . . in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father . . . that is, of the substance of the Father . . . in Him Who for us men and for our salvation came down and was made Flesh, that is, was perfectly begotten of Mary ever Virgin by the Holy Spirit; Who became Man, that is, took perfect human nature, soul and body and mind and all whatsoever is human save only sin, without the seed of man; not in another man, but unto himself did He form Flesh into one holy unity [eis mian hagian henoteta]; not as He breathed and spoke and wrought in the prophets, but He became Man perfectly; for the Word was made Flesh, not in that It underwent a change nor in that It exchanged Its Divinity for humanity, but in that It united Its Flesh unto Its one holy totality and Divinity [eis mian . . . heautou hagian teleioteta te kai theoteta].' "The one holy totality", Franzelin considers, means personality, a person being an individual and complete subject of rational acts. This creed of the catechumens gives even the Divinity of the totality, i. e. the fact that the individual Person of Jesus is a Divine and not a human Person. Of this intricate question we shall speak later on.

The witness of tradition to the fact of the union of the two natures in the one Person of Jesus is clear not only from the symbols or creeds in use before the condemnation of Nestorius, but also from the words of the ante-Nicaean Fathers. We have already given the classic quotations from St. Ignatius the Martyr, St. Clement of Rome, St. Justin the Martyr, in all of which are attributed to the one Person, Jesus Christ, the actions or attributes of God and of Man. Melito, Bishop of Sardis (about 176), says: "Since the same (Christ) was at the same time God and perfect Man, He made His two natures evident to us; His Divine nature by the miracles which He wrought during the three years after His baptism; His human nature by those thirtv years that He first lived, during which the lowliness of the Flesh covered over and hid away all signs of the Divinity, though He was at one and the same time true and everlasting God" (Frag. vii in P. G., V, 1221). St. Irenaeus, toward the close of the second century, argues: "If one person suffered and another Person remained incapable of suffering; if one person was born and another Person came down upon him that was born and thereafter left him, not one person but two are proven . . . whereas the Apostle knew one only Who was born and Who suffered" ("Adv. Haer.", III, xvi, n, 9, in P. G., VII, 928). Tertullian bears firm witness: "Was not God really crucified? Did He not realiy die as He really was crucified?" ("De Carne Christi", c. v, in P. L., II, 760).

(Phatcatholic):”Jesus's perfect, 100% humanity and his perfect, 100% divinity combine to form one Person, the Second Person in the Holy Trinity”

10-(Ayed): You are about to attach Jesus to the holonym”Trinity” , are not you?

If Jesus is of a divine form and never sins , then why does he pray?

Facts: It stands to reason and is really accepted that when one is praying , then this pray is a type of adoration .Since Jesus does pray , glorify and seek strength from Allah , then this entails that Jesus is really a prophet , one of Allah’s submissive creatures.

hopefully, i have already adequately addressed why Jesus would pray. maybe others can help to explain this further. As to prayer as a means of adoration, you are right! but, where you are mistaken is when you assume that when A adores B, that A must therefore be inferior to B. This is not always true, as it is w/ the Holy Trinity.

Ayed, this is one of the most complicated mysteries of Christianity. It is in many ways impossible for the human mind to comprehend. All we can do is accept the premises of the Trinity as they are--as they have been outlined and elucidated by the Catholic Church. I won't however, leave you w/ my explanation. For a wealth of information on Christology (Jesus Christ), Pneumatology (Holy Spirit), Theology Proper (Doctrine of God) and the Holy Trinity, i strongly encourage you to visit the following site:

Trinitarianism and Christology

i hope this helps ayed. Good luck and God Bless,

phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

pham,

sorry about the double post. the first one is an incomplete version of the second. computers get frustrating between 3 and 5 in the morning.

pax christi,

nick

[phatcatholic]

ayed,

i was just wondering if you had any more questions or comments about the role of prayer in the life of the catholic, the persons of the trinity, or the hypstatic union of Jesus Christ.

please let me know.

good luck and God Bless,

nick

[VeraMaria]

ayed;

here are some answers to questions about prayer:

http://www.daughtersofstpaul.com/growingin...ercomm_231.html

Prayer is also communication with God. Prayer is not always asking, asking, asking. Prayer is communication. Jesus was TALKING to the father.

Also, it's important to remember that while Jesus was divine, he was also human. He came to be just like us. He had his moments of despair.

but i don't know why i'm saying this, it was fully explained by people above :)

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, The Most merciful , The Most gracious

I hope you all be in good condition,

1-(Aloysius)”The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. There is one God. All three are infinite”

(Ayed): Since they are three distinct persons, then they must have really been three Gods not One .Just stretch the three fingers of your right hand: the index finger, the middle finger and the ring finger and see if they are identical?

In your doctrine , Jesus crucified and passed away for three days,then how come he infinite?

2-(Aloysius):”Jesus was on Earth. Jesus is. The Father is. The Holy Spirit is”

(Ayed)Well, then who stayed at heavens?

3-(Aloysius):” …Jesus is distinct from His heavenly Father yet they are both the same…He is full God and full man”

(Ayed): It is logic that if Jesus is full God , full man and is distinct from the Father , then this inevitably entails that “the Father” is full God and full man .

4-(Aloysius):”…the Holy Spirit is seen as the guardian Angel of Jesus…”

(Ayed): Exactly so. As mentioned in the Holy Qur’an :”

“ We gave 'Iesa(Jesus), the son of Maryam(Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) “(2:87)5-(Aloysius):”…Jesus Christ infinitely loves His Father, His Father infinitely loves Him”

(Ayed):If I ask a child studying at kindergarten school how many person in the phrase No.5 above, he will immediately answer :”Two”

6-(Aloysius):”While Jesus was on earth, they expressed this love through human words”

(Ayed):”They” is a pronoun which refers to “two persons” or more”, isn’ it?Then how come you say that “two”equals”one”?Pray , in what language do speak, Mr.Aloysius?Either you unitentionally block up your mind not to accept reality or you keep the facts from me.Pardon me if I say so.

“two” is “two”, “one” is “one” No way!!7-(Aloysius):”They are coequal”

(Ayed):Mr.Aloysius, in what characteristics are they coequal?

8-(Aloysius):”God the Son infinitely Loves God the Father”

(Ayed):Now, how many God do you have?Didn’t I said that you have three Gods not One!?

9-(Aloysius):”…God the Father is always praying to God the Son”

(Ayed):Kindly, give me a verse of your holy books confirming that Allah praying to Jesus?.

10-(Alyosius):”God the Son, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, took on flesh, became man, as Jesus Christ. While man, Christ expressed this prayer which He infinitely and always gives to His Father, through human words and human prayers because He was perfectly human

(Ayed) what is the significance of Christ when he got into the Blessed Virgin May’s womb?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1-(Phatcatholic):”one cannot extend this logic to the conclusions you have drawn based on my statement. first off, the Father and the Son--two persons in the Holy Trinity--glorify each other. so, just b/c i say Jesus prays to give glory to God, this does not mean that he is necessarily human.

(Ayed) :Well, don’t you say that Jesus is a full man?.

2-(Phatcatholic):” just b/c the Son prays to the Father, this does not mean that he "worships the Creator" from an inferior position like we do.

(Ayed): Well, Mr.Phatcatholic,read the following verse from your holy book(Mark 1:35):

“And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.Now , my question is this:

What type of prayer is Jesus doing in this verse?

3-(Phatcatholic):”nothing about my statement should lead one to infer that the Father chose the Son to be a prophet, therefore your logic that "Jesus is not a God" collapses here.

(Ayed):Well, Mr.Phatcatholic, if my logic has collapsed , then read the following verse of your holy book(Luke 24:1

[ayed]

In the name of Allah, The Most merciful , The Most gracious

I hope you all be in good condition,

1-(Aloysius)”The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. There is one God. All three are infinite”

(Ayed): Since they are three distinct persons, then they must have really been three Gods not One .Just stretch the three fingers of your right hand: the index finger, the middle finger and the ring finger and see if they are identical?

In your doctrine , Jesus crucified and passed away for three days,then how come he infinite?

2-(Aloysius):”Jesus was on Earth. Jesus is. The Father is. The Holy Spirit is”

(Ayed)Well, then who stayed at heavens?

3-(Aloysius):” …Jesus is distinct from His heavenly Father yet they are both the same…He is full God and full man”

(Ayed): It is logic that if Jesus is full God , full man and is distinct from the Father , then this inevitably entails that “the Father” is full God and full man .

4-(Aloysius):”…the Holy Spirit is seen as the guardian Angel of Jesus…”

(Ayed): Exactly so. As mentioned in the Holy Qur’an :”

“ We gave 'Iesa(Jesus), the son of Maryam(Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) “(2:87)

5-(Aloysius):”…Jesus Christ infinitely loves His Father, His Father infinitely loves Him”

(Ayed):If I ask a child studying at kindergarten school how many person in the phrase No.5 above, he will immediately answer :”Two”

6-(Aloysius):”While Jesus was on earth, they expressed this love through human words”

(Ayed):”They” is a pronoun which refers to “two persons” or more”, isn’ it?Then how come you say that “two”equals”one”?Pray , in what language do speak, Mr.Aloysius?Either you unitentionally block up your mind not to accept reality or you keep the facts from me.Pardon me if I say so.

“two” is “two”, “one” is “one” No way!!

7-(Aloysius):”They are coequal”

(Ayed):Mr.Aloysius, in what characteristics are they coequal?

8-(Aloysius):”God the Son infinitely Loves God the Father”

(Ayed):Now, how many God do you have?Didn’t I said that you have three Gods not One!?

9-(Aloysius):”…God the Father is always praying to God the Son”

(Ayed):Kindly, give me a verse of your holy books confirming that Allah praying to Jesus?.

10-(Alyosius):”God the Son, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, took on flesh, became man, as Jesus Christ. While man, Christ expressed this prayer which He infinitely and always gives to His Father, through human words and human prayers because He was perfectly human

(Ayed) what is the significance of Christ when he got into the Blessed Virgin May’s womb?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1-(Phatcatholic):”one cannot extend this logic to the conclusions you have drawn based on my statement. first off, the Father and the Son--two persons in the Holy Trinity--glorify each other. so, just b/c i say Jesus prays to give glory to God, this does not mean that he is necessarily human.

(Ayed) :Well, don’t you say that Jesus is a full man?.

2-(Phatcatholic):” just b/c the Son prays to the Father, this does not mean that he "worships the Creator" from an inferior position like we do.

(Ayed): Well, Mr.Phatcatholic,read the following verse from your holy book(Mark 1:35):

“And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed.Now , my question is this:

What type of prayer is Jesus doing in this verse?

3-(Phatcatholic):”nothing about my statement should lead one to infer that the Father chose the Son to be a prophet, therefore your logic that "Jesus is not a God" collapses here.

(Ayed):Well, Mr.Phatcatholic, if my logic has collapsed , then read the following verse of your holy book(Luke 24:19):

“And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:"

My question is :He who has chosen Jesus to be a prophet?Is it me or Jesus’ Creator , yours and mine ?

4-(Phatcatholic):”logistically, the only explanation i can give is in itself quite complicated. it is basically this: even tho the Father is God and the Son is God, they are two different Persons in the Holy Trinity and are therefore able to pray to one another. as to why they would pray to each other, Alo explains this well. I also hold to my conclusion that Jesus, in his perfect humanity, is justified in and able to pray to the Father for strength

(Ayed): Jesus(Allah’s peace be on him) is praying to Allah:

read (Mark 1:35):“And in the morning, rising up a great while before day, he went out, and departed into a solitary place, and there prayed”

Now, could you please give a holy verse confirming that Allah does pray to Jesus?I hope so.

5-(Phatcatholic):” the former [the Father] …the latter [the Son]”

(Ayed) :Who comes first?the Father or th Son?Who is the inferior and who is the superior?

6-(Phatcatholic:”The Son can be devoted to the Father w/o being "submissive." The Father and the Son are dependent on each other in the sense that if one Person ceases to be, the others cease to be --and-- b/c everything the Son has comes from the Father. However, Jesus is NOT dependent on the Father in the sense that he is inferior to Him. They are both God.

(Ayed):In the Holy Qur’an, Allah says about Himself:”He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything”(6:101)

7-(Phatcatholic):”Although he is perfectly God, he is also perfectly human, and therefore subject to temptation.

(Ayed):How can a God be subject to temptation?

8-(Phatcatholic):”…i do think that in his perfect humanity he asked for strength from the Father, as we all do. The burden of all man's sins is a heavy burden inDouche!

(Ayed) :Again, I ask you : Isn’t asking strength from the Father signaling to some weakness, is it?As I said before ,:”Jesus is not a coetaneous nor coequal nor coeternal to Allah”.And If my conclusion is unlogic ,then tell me ,Mr.Phatcatholic, what is the logic conclusion?

9- (Phatcatholic):”… St. John says: "The Word was made flesh"

(Ayed):Who made the Word to be flesh?

10-(Phatcatholic):”…that is, He Who was God in the Beginning and by Whom all things were created became Man?

(Ayed):oh!Why our Originator ,the Creator , Allah , Yahweh , the Father became Man?

11-(Phatcatholic):” According to the testimony of St. Paul, the very same Person, Jesus Christ, "being in the form of God”

(Ayed) :Is St.Paul one of Jesus’ disciples?

12-(Phatcatholic):”As to prayer as a means of adoration, you are right! but, where you are mistaken is when you assume that when A adores B, that A must therefore be inferior to B.

(Ayed):Who should salute first?the officer or the enlisted soldier?

(Ayed):

thank you Veramaria

Accept my rememberances .

ayed4all@hotmail.com

[God Conquers]

Ayed,

In the Bible, Jesus clearly says that he is God. He equates himself with God. He claims powers which belong only to God, he was Crucified for claiming he was God.

Did he Know that what he was saying was flase?Was your Prophet Jesus a Liar?

Did he really think he was God but in reality was false?Was your Prophet Jesus a Lunatic?

Or... Did he truly believe that He was God and IS ?

[Aloysius]

Ayed, you seem to think that i have some flawed train of thought that i haven't thought all the way through but you can enlighten me to the part i neglected.

as if i didn't realize saying God the Father, God the Son, and God the HOly SPirit seem like three gods. but the fact is, i understand completely that this doesn't make sense. i contend to you, that if it made sense in human minds, IT WOULDN'T BE GOD.

do you know the concept of infinity in math? do you know that three times infinity is still infinity? that infinity plus infinity plus infinity is infinity? thus it is with the three infinite persons.

infinity + infinity + infinity = infinity

on the left of the equals sign, did i not just mention three infinities? yet that is but one infinity. all three infinities are co-equal, as in infinity=infinity=infinity. And they are all different, say the first infinity counts by ones (equatable to the Holy SPirit, as it binds the other two together) while the other infinity counts by 2's (equatable to the Father) and the other infinity counts by 3's (equatable to the Son). these are three distinct things. as in

infinity#1 would start 2, 4, 6, 8, 10.......... goes on forever

infinty#2 would start 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18....goes on forever

infinity #3 would start 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...... goes on forever.

notice all three are infinity. all three, however are distinct.

now go back up there and replace the word "infinity" with the word "Infinite Person of the Holy Trinity" as we know that by definition God IS infinite.

replace "would start" with "is"

replace the first set of numbers with the word "The Father"

replace the second set of numbers with the word "The Son"

and replace the third set of numbers with the word "The Holy Spirit"

Infinite Person of the Holy Trinity # 1 is The Father, He goes on forever

Infinite Person of the Holy Trinity # 2 is the Son, He goes on forever

Infinite Person of the Holy Trinity # 3 is the Holy Spirit... He goes on forever

The Father + The Son + THe Holy Spirit = God

The Father=The Son=The Holy Spirit=God

The Father= God

The Son= God

The Holy Spirit = God

it's the amazing mystery beyond man's comprehension.

it seems that every time i explain it to you, it goes in one ear and out the other and you pick apart the explanation and say technically, at this point you have mentioned two different gods. that gets a lil frustrating. i know that technically, that's what it says if I say The Father is distinct from the Son, but then i go on the explain how, even though they are distinct they are coequal and the same, and One God.

it's a hard teaching. but hopefully God will open your heart and mind to at least understand the concept even if you don't believe it. Hopefully He'll open your heart and mind to recognize Christians believe in ONE GOD.

also, Jesus IS Allah, according to our Religion. The Holy Spirit IS Allah. Not Just the Father is Allah. well, as long as Allah means God, and according to what i know about Islam, it does.

Peace of Christ be upon you, Ayed. :)

[Aloysius]

1-(Aloysius)”The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. There is one God. All three are infinite”

(Ayed): Since they are three distinct persons, then they must have really been three Gods not One .Just stretch the three fingers of your right hand: the index finger, the middle finger and the ring finger and see if they are identical?

In your doctrine , Jesus crucified and passed away for three days,then how come he infinite?

notice, i said they are three distinct persons. these are three infinite persons who are distinct from one another. see my previous post as to how these Three who are One can be distinct, the part about infinity counted by 1's or 2's or 3's.

2-(Aloysius):”Jesus was on Earth. Jesus is. The Father is. The Holy Spirit is”

(Ayed)Well, then who stayed at heavens?

that's an interesting question. you have led me to think and delve into a theology i never considered before. I would say that The Father, the Son, and the Spirit were infinitely in Heaven, yet God is present all around us on Earth also, for God is infinite and fills up everything. He is the definition of existence, therefore He must dwell wherever something Exists. not to delve into Heresy calling objects God, but saying that God dwells among and sustains all things that exist. The Three Persons of the Trinity are inseperable. Therefore they both infinitely fill up heaven and infinitely more than heaven, and they infinitely fill up the entire Universe and more of the Universe, they would all three be infinitely present in Heaven and on Earth. Yet, the conciencness of the Son, in that special moment of time, resided on Earth in the form of a Man, Jesus Christ. The entire infinite God was this man. All of creation of which He is always present in, was present in Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ was God Incarnate and because He existed in all places, yet at that moment existed in as man, all places the Son existed in along with the Son were within that man. All of Heaven, which He is always infinitely present in, at that point while He was totally present in the Form of man, all of heaven was totally present in that Man because He who was present in all of Heaven was totally present within the Man. The Man, Jesus Christ, was the Son of God, and within Him dwelt all of the Heavens and All of the Earth, and all of Creation, because the Son of God is always present in all those places.

Catholic scholars and theologians, if any of this contradicts Catholic doctrine, PM me and I will gladly renounce it. But as I know right now, I stand by this claim.

[Aloysius]

3-(Aloysius):” …Jesus is distinct from His heavenly Father yet they are both the same…He is full God and full man”

(Ayed): It is logic that if Jesus is full God , full man and is distinct from the Father , then this inevitably entails that “the Father” is full God and full man .

not necessarily. The Son took on flesh. The Father did not. The Son is different from the Father. say i took my previous math example

infinity#1 would start 2, 4, 6, 8, 10.......... goes on forever

infinty#2 would start 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18....goes on forever

infinity #3 would start 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6...... goes on forever.

If the Son is equatable to 'infinity #2", then we can say that all of the odd numbers in the list of infinity #2 makes it different from infinty #1. Now you could say then is the Holy SPirit true God and true man if it is the list of infinity #3? i would say that infinity #3 is different, or distinct, from infinity #2 by all of it's numbers which are not multiples of 3. get what i'm emphasizing by this example? just because they are the same and co-equal, doesn't mean that they cannot have differences and distinctions. Like the Humanity taken on by the Son.

4-(Aloysius):”…the Holy Spirit is seen as the guardian Angel of Jesus…”

(Ayed): Exactly so. As mentioned in the Holy Qur’an :”

“ We gave 'Iesa(Jesus), the son of Maryam(Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) “(2:87)

that's not exactly what i was saying. see, we see the Holy Spirit as God. Jesus Christ is True GOd. Jesus Christ is true man also. but because He is also true man, no angel can rightfully be guardian angel of Him. Therefore, the Holy Spirit can be guardian angel of Him because they are both, in numerical value, infinity and thus are equal yet different so the Holy Spirit can protect/rule/guide (the role of a guardian angel) the Son.

what you were saying was that Gabriel was the guardian angel of Jesus, which we wouldn't accept since Gabriel was a mere angel while Jesus IS God.

5-(Aloysius):”…Jesus Christ infinitely loves His Father, His Father infinitely loves Him”

(Ayed):If I ask a child studying at kindergarten school how many person in the phrase No.5 above, he will immediately answer :”Two”

this is a good argument, as Jesus did tell us that we must become as little children if we wish to enter the kingdom of God. however, i believe that means more about morality and unquestioning faith of the little child. because Jesus doesn't want us to reject the human reason which He gave as a gift to us in order to learn more about Him and His creation. therefore, a child who does not understand the complexities of the Trinity may answer two. but a child who understands the simplicities of the Trinity and accepts with his childlike faith, as is He knows that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, they are all God and they are all one ( i teach preschoolers, and i know most of my preschoolers who seem to get this concept ) then if you say how many is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? they might say three, which is correct as they ARE three persons. or they might say one, which many a preschooler has shocked me by doing so. One is also correct, as we know they are one God.

6-(Aloysius):”While Jesus was on earth, they expressed this love through human words”

(Ayed):”They” is a pronoun which refers to “two persons” or more”, isn’ it?Then how come you say that “two”equals”one”?Pray , in what language do speak, Mr.Aloysius?Either you unitentionally block up your mind not to accept reality or you keep the facts from me.Pardon me if I say so.

“two” is “two”, “one” is “one” No way!!

this is the same argument. two does not equal one, as well as three does not equal one. yet infinity plus infinity equals one infinity. infinity times two equals one infinity. infinity plus infinity plus infinity equals one infinity. infinity times three equals one infinity.

7-(Aloysius):”They are coequal”

(Ayed):Mr.Aloysius, in what characteristics are they coequal?

let's say we're assigning them a numerical value. that numerical value would have to be infinity as they are both infinite. therefore, i say they are co-equal on the basis that they are both infinity. i say they are distinct because, if we're considering it as numerical values, one could be counting by, say, 2's, and the other could be counting by, say, 3's. so, as far as i'm concerned, the original arguments cover this part.

8-(Aloysius):”God the Son infinitely Loves God the Father”

(Ayed):Now, how many God do you have?Didn’t I said that you have three Gods not One!?

again, i've explained this before. let me replace words to show how that would follow my mathematical metaphor.

"Infinity by 2's infinitely equals Infinity by 3's"

although it's just using a different verb in real life. because these two distinct Infinite persons infinitely love each other. I say God the Son recognizing the divinity of the Son. I say God the Father recognizing the divinity of the Father. the wording may have been confusing for ya there.

9-(Aloysius):”…God the Father is always praying to God the Son”

(Ayed):Kindly, give me a verse of your holy books confirming that Allah praying to Jesus?.

When the Father says to Jesus "You are my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased" that's the Father's prayer of encouragment through human words to His Son. They do however, pray, communicate, love and adore each other in Spirit throughout all eternity, but here the Son is doing so through the flesh and the Father responds by doing so 'in the flesh' so to speak, that is, through human means.

10-(Alyosius):”God the Son, in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary, took on flesh, became man, as Jesus Christ. While man, Christ expressed this prayer which He infinitely and always gives to His Father, through human words and human prayers because He was perfectly human

(Ayed) what is the significance of Christ when he got into the Blessed Virgin May’s womb?

the same significance as always, infinite, all-powerful, ever-living God. yet when He takes on flesh through the womb of Mary, He becomes man. He does not change, He is still completely God. He takes on humanity humbling Himself and lifting humanity up.