Democracy and Catholicism

[Leah]

The thread on liberalism caused me to think about the connections between democracy and Catholicism. For much of American history, Catholics were viewed with suspcision because they "held allegience" to the pope (see the controversy on this issue surrounding the election of John F. Kennedy) and Catholicism was considered to be incompatible with the American liberal democratic tradition. This was further borne out by the fact that no Catholic countries were liberal democracies. Reading some more contemporary writers, I see a trend where some, such as Robert Kraynak, denounce liberal democracy because it does not impose a particular morality upon its citizens because it would infringe upon one's rights. However, other writers such as George Weigel vigourously assert the compatibility of democracy and Catholicism and believe the Church to be the formost institution and authority for spreading democratic values and human rights. Are there any thoughts on this issue?

[Cam42]

I think that in order to fully understand what is in your question, you need to read three things

1. [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/l13grcom.htm"]GRAVES DE COMMUNI RE [/url]

2. [url="http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13rerum.htm"]RERUM NOVARUM [/url]

3. [url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_01051991_centesimus-annus_en.html"]CENTESIMUS ANNUS[/url]

These are three pretty inclusive documents on the insight of the Church and modern democracy.

[Aloysius]

ultimately the ideology that says rulers get their power from the people is flawed as rulers actually get authority from God.

[thessalonian]

It is interesting that one pope condemned democracy, while another affirmed it. The difference was the first was the democracy of the French Revolution. (can't recall which Pope) The second was Pius XII on American democracy. The question is much to complex to give an all sufficient answer it seems to me. I don't see the Bible as in favor of one system over another. In the end it will be a theocracy under which men out of love and perfect submission to God will govern themselves.

blessings

[thessalonian]

It is interesting that one pope condemned democracy, while another affirmed it. The difference was the first was the democracy of the French Revolution. (can't recall which Pope) The second was Pius XII on American democracy. The question is much to complex to give an all sufficient answer it seems to me. I don't see the Bible as in favor of one system over another. In the end it will be a theocracy under which men out of love and perfect submission to God will govern themselves.

blessings

[Michael D.]

[quote]ultimately the ideology that says rulers get their power from the people is flawed as rulers actually get authority from God.[/quote]

Why do you say that?

[Aloysius]

"Non est enim potestas nisi a Deo" -St. Paul
(There is no authority except from God)

Christ affirmed it when speaking to Pilate, St. Paul wrote it in Sacred Scriptures, and continuously for 2000 years it has been upheld that anyone in authority over any part of creation holds that authority because God permits him to. If popular opinion was against a ruler, that ruler would not lose his authority to rule. If God was against a ruler, that ruler would lose his authority to rule. Popularity has no influence over whether someone merits authority over others.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 10 2005, 07:27 PM']"Non est enim potestas nisi a Deo" -St. Paul
(There is no authority except from God)

Christ affirmed it when speaking to Pilate, St. Paul wrote it in Sacred Scriptures, and continuously for 2000 years it has been upheld that anyone in authority over any part of creation holds that authority because God permits him to.  If popular opinion was against a ruler, that ruler would not lose his authority to rule.  If God was against a ruler, that ruler would lose his authority to rule.  Popularity has no influence over whether someone merits authority over others.
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What determines whether a ruler has authority to rule? How do we know when God is against a ruler?

[Aloysius]

all in authority have that authority from God. it is when they misuse that authority and transgress on divine law that they lose authority, but they only lose authority for that which they are misusing it.

for example: the government of the United States is in authority over us. Therefore, it has that authority from God. When it makes abortion legal, it has transgressed divine law and loses it's authority. But it still has God-given authority to make other laws.

[Aloysius]

another example: if a government were to make abortion illegal and the majority of the people wanted it legal, that government would not have any less authority to rule. on the contrary it has a greater authority.

And let's remember that the majority (if not all) of 'revolutions' in history were really fought between 2% of the population, 1% revolting and 1% fighting back. the revolting 1% take control of the governmental institutions and shortly thereafter the rest of the 98% are on their side.

it is a myth that 'the people' revolt, ever. even in the French revolution.

[Socrates]

Did Adolf Hitler or Joseph Stalin have God-given authority to rule?

[Aloysius]

: I knew Hitler would come up.

There is no authority except from God.

Christ said Pontias Pilate, the only ruler in history to directly commit suicide, had authority from God.

Yes, they had authority from God to rule. They did not have authority from God to kill millions of people. They did not have authority from God to do any of those things that transgressed divine law. But no one can hold authority over any of God's creatures by his own power or by the power of the mass of people.

Sacred Scripture tells us authority comes only from God. from nothing else.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Aug 10 2005, 08:15 PM']: I knew Hitler would come up.

There is no authority except from God.

Christ said Pontias Pilate, the only ruler in history to directly commit suicide, had authority from God.

Yes, they had authority from God to rule.  They did not have authority from God to kill millions of people.  They did not have authority from God to do any of those things that transgressed divine law.  But no one can hold authority over any of God's creatures by his own power or by the power of the mass of people. 

Sacred Scripture tells us authority comes only from God.  from nothing else.
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So whatever tyrant seizes power is automatically in power by authority of God? And any attempt to overthrow such monsters would be intrinsically evil?

[Aloysius]

no you're putting words in my mouth. why don't you come up with a position here and we'll see if we agree?

authority is from God, that's all I'm saying. anyone in authority has that authority because of God, not because of the people.

[Jaime]

Actually this would be the first time where bringing up Hitler in a thread makes perfect sense