another problem with evil

[Laudate_Dominum]

Not to hijack or anything, but I take it you totally disagreed with my cave-man ideas? just curious.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 7 2005, 04:52 PM']hehe, I've heard some whoppers on the history channel. No offense to you or anyone else, but phooey on the history channel.
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i dont want to offend you at all regarding what i am about to say. This is just how a person like me percieves things. When i see you denying what the history channel says its like you and others are denying the truth. The history channel is non-biased. Everything that it presents is either fact or theory...........and it does a good job of telling you which is which. Its like people who dont believe in facts are in denial because it goes against their beliefs..........according to yahweh........it is a sin to deny the truth.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 7 2005, 04:56 PM']Not to hijack or anything, but I take it you totally disagreed with my cave-man ideas? just curious.
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what cave man ideas? id like to see them.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 04:56 PM']i dont want to offend you at all regarding what i am about to say. This is just how a person like me percieves things. When i see you denying what the history channel says its like you and others are denying the truth. The history channel is non-biased. Everything that it presents is either fact or theory...........and it does a good job of telling you which is which. Its like people who dont believe in facts are in denial because it goes against their beliefs..........according to yahweh........it is a sin to deny the truth.
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In my experience the study of history can really make a person cynical. You can read ten history books by ten different authors and get ten different stories all geared towards to authors particular biases and possible agenda. It is naive to assume that the people involved in the various HS productions are perfectly objective and have no biases or agendas. I have seen otherwise in some pretty extreme cases.
For example, I recall a show that talked about early Christian history a bit, and they had a fellow from Cambridge talking (I forget his name), and I knew the fellow to be a vehement atheist, anti-Christian biggot. What kind of presentation do you think he gave? Having studied that period of history a bit myself, it was so obvious that the information in that show was skewed and doctored toward a particular agenda. If Warren Carroll had produced that same show it would have been light years apart.

So this is my point: in history always get as many different sources as you can and hope that you can actually discern something of how things really went down.

yes, I'm cynical.. I know.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 04:56 PM']what cave man ideas? id like to see them.
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This thread from a while back.. maybe I can find it for ya.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I just bumped the cave man thread.. it's called "How Old is the Earth", by MC Just.

[infinitelord1]

listen dominion guy...........i appreciate your concern and effort you have put into this thread...........we know where each other stands now. I dont think debate will convince me or you of anything. We will continue to believe what we believe. All i can say...........its gonna take devine intervention to convince me. What are the odds of that happening? Im doomed i guess.........oh well. I pray for divine intervention all the time. I have finally accepted that it wont happen. praying for things is like torture. Nothing is solved.............i still feel things i dont want to feel. Oh, I believe it doesnt do anything but drive a person to insanity. I try to just accept that there is a god and i convince myself for a while. That doesnt get me where i would like to be. God knows what i demand..

[Sirklawd]

God doesnt send anyone to hell. people send themselves. Hell is the absense of God, and all things good. When people live their lives, and use their free will to choose actions that are against God's will, they are choosing an absense of God. God loves us no matter what, and when we die he will let us continue to be without him for eternity - it just so happens its not that pleasant.

in order to understand christianity you must get that good and evil are completely objective. how we personally feel about things doesnt matter at all.

through learning about the church and its teachings you gain insight as to "why" it is the way it is. Furthermore through prayer you start to get the picture.

infinitelord1, there seems to be alot to your problem that you arnt explaining - i see it could be personal and you wouldnt want to. thats cool. If you pray for God to give you "proof" that he is real, keep your eyes open. While theres a big chance he wont just appear in front of you and be like "yo, check it, im SO real", if you keep your eyes and heart open you may infact see your prayers answered.

Edited August 7, 2005 by Sirklawd

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Sirklawd' date='Aug 7 2005, 05:18 PM']God doesnt send anyone to hell. people send themselves. Hell is the absense of God, and all things good. When people live their lives, and use their free will to choose actions that are against God's will, they are choosing an absense of God. God loves us no matter what, and when we die he will let us continue to be without him for eternity - it just so happens its not that pleasant.

in order to understand christianity you must get that good and evil are completely objective. how we personally feel about things doesnt matter at all.

through learning about the church and its teachings you gain insight as to "why" it is the way it is. Furthermore through prayer you start to get the picture.

infinitelord1, there seems to be alot to your problem that you arnt explaining - i see it could be personal and you wouldnt want to. thats cool. If you pray for God to give you "proof" that he is real, keep your eyes open. While theres a big chance he wont just appear in front of you and be like "yo, check it, im SO real", if you keep your eyes and heart open you may infact see your prayers answered.
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i am a very analytical person.........believe me..........i pray for signs all the time..............i think i get them a lot but it turns out it was nothing.

As far as free-will vs. predestination goes...........

I think in the eyes of god it is all predestination but from our perspective it is free-will.
It really only matters what god thinks though right? Since everything is objective.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 05:17 PM']listen dominion guy...........i appreciate your concern and effort you have put into this thread...........we know where each other stands now. I dont think debate will convince me or you of anything. We will continue to believe what we believe. All i can say...........its gonna take devine intervention to convince me. What are the odds of that happening? Im doomed i guess.........oh well. I pray for divine intervention all the time. I have finally accepted that it wont happen. praying for things is like torture. Nothing is solved.............i still feel things i dont want to feel. Oh, I believe it doesnt do anything but drive a person to insanity. I try to just accept that there is a god and i convince myself for a while. That doesnt get me where i would like to be. God knows what i demand..
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Thanks for the appreciation infiniteguy. hehe
I'm pretty confident that if you are praying about this God will hook you up. It's possible that you're supposed to go through this right now for some reasons.
But when I was speaking of prayer I didn't really have giving God an ultimatem in mind. Perhaps the essential attitude for authentic prayer is humility.
There are certain things I can think of for attaining a more appropriate and docile spirit of prayer if one is severely lacking in faith:

Reflection upon man's basic metaphysical situation:
1. I did not create myself, I have been created by someone or something outside myself
2. Imminent death
3. Eternity. "Anyone who believes in eternity and does not become a saint should be confined as one deranged."

Interior reflection upon the ability to even conceive of eternity can be helpful too.
Reflection upon the perception of aesthetic values and intersubjectivity.

I don't know if this helps, but this is what I would likely do.

God bless.

[infinitelord1]

a couple of years ago i mentioned to a co-worker that i was thinking about moving to texas. The next day he approaches me and tells me to move to texas. I asked "why?". he said something amazing was gonna happen to me here. I said "what makes you think that?" He said, "God told me".

that amazing thing hasent happened yet. I dont know how much longer i will be in the state of texas. I certainly dont fit in around here. This ultra conservative atmosphere makes me sick. You met one aggie you met them all.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm tempted to start responding to everything with:

Love is the answer.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 7 2005, 05:34 PM']I'm tempted to start responding to everything with:

Love is the answer.
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yea, its certainly much easier to believe in god if you are happy.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I tend to agree with that. I guess those who find their happiness mainly in God are in good shape.

[Fidei Defensor]

One must remember, when you pray, you are not commanding God to do something, but opening yourself to him and his will. Do not pray for "divine intervention" or such, but rather, just simply say "Lord, If it be your will that I have faith, your will be done"

I particularly like today's gospel reading.

[quote]Matthew 14,22-33.

Then he made the disciples get into the boat and precede him to the other side, while he dismissed the crowds. After doing so, he went up on the mountain by himself to pray. When it was evening he was there alone. Meanwhile the boat, already a few miles offshore, was being tossed about by the waves, for the wind was against it. During the fourth watch of the night, he came toward them, walking on the sea. When the disciples saw him walking on the sea they were terrified. "It is a ghost," they said, and they cried out in fear. At once (Jesus) spoke to them, "Take courage, it is I; do not be afraid." Peter said to him in reply, "Lord, if it is you, command me to come to you on the water." He said, "Come." Peter got out of the boat and began to walk on the water toward Jesus. But when he saw how (strong) the wind was he became frightened; and, beginning to sink, he cried out, "Lord, save me!" Immediately Jesus stretched out his hand and caught him, and said to him, "O you of little faith, why did you doubt?" After they got into the boat, the wind died down. Those who were in the boat did him homage, saying, "Truly, you are the Son of God."[/quote]

Much can be learned from this reading. Immediately what comes to mind for me, is Peter trying to walk on the water and the connection to us and our own faith. For him, walking to the Lord, across the water, took alot of faith. As soon as he started to doubt, he started to sink. Yet, when he called out to Jesus to help him, Jesus streched out his arm, and saved him.

This can be compared to our human situation. Our faith is like that of Peter. When we are completely faithful, we can "walk on water", to reach the Lord. But, when we let things get to us, like Peter did, we doubt, and begin to "sink", or become immersed in our doubts. But, we always have help. We just need to seek our help before we sink too far into doubts. Even then, we still can be saved. We must seek Jesus, and ask him to save us, and he will pull us from out doubts, and we will have faith again to continue our journey. Jesus never turns anyone away, but he alone knows the proper time to save us from our doubts.