infinitelord1 Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 (edited) [quote name='jasJis' date='Aug 7 2005, 09:25 AM']EXACTLY CORRECT !! Therein lies the begining of the answer you are seeking. Intstinctively, we recognize Good and Evil and know they are opposed to each other. You recognize the bad things happen to good people, and good things happen for bad people, seemingly, indiscriminately and unfairly. Before we continue, two questions: Am I right so far? Do you recognize that our good/evil acts affect others? [right][snapback]675843[/snapback][/right] [/quote] yea, we certainly designate things that afflict pain to be evil and things that make us feel happy to be good. This, however, differs from person to person. There is too many people out there that do things considered "evil" by others and they dont feel bad ffor it. In fact, they may very well be happy doing these things. Its like......as humans are evolving.......they are becoming more intelligent and less dependent on the belief in god. Its like the idea of god gives mankind a sense of security. I think that idea of evil makes no sense at all. Which kind of makes the idea of good nonsense also. Is good/evil an instinct? Do we designate things to be instinct since we believe in them? How do you know its a matter of instinct? Edited August 7, 2005 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 do you accept the scriptures for what they are or do you think they are just stories..... if its the former, and i hope it is, then how can you explain thomas exclaiming "my Lord and my God" upon seeing Jesus after His ressurection? surely the other apostles would have said....thomas, thomas, thats not really God......right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:11 PM']do you accept the scriptures for what they are or do you think they are just stories..... if its the former, and i hope it is, then how can you explain thomas exclaiming "my Lord and my God" upon seeing Jesus after His ressurection? surely the other apostles would have said....thomas, thomas, thats not really God......right? [right][snapback]676050[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i dont know what to think of scripture since i dont know if there is a god. I think it is a histocrocal account of possible events that may have occured. If God confronted thomas why wont he confront me or anybody else these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 also let us not forget that the church and government used to be one. hmmmm........could it be that the government was trying to maintain order in society? Afterall, religion was introduced to the romans because the emporer didnt like the permiscuous life style his daughter was living and he looked around at his society and saw that they were permiscous also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HomeTeamFamily Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote]I think it is a histocrocal account of possible events that may have occured.[/quote] so how do you know about anything that happend in the past.....world war 1 or 2........for example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:06 PM']yea, we certainly designate things that afflict pain to be evil and things that make us feel happy to be good. This, however, differs from person to person. There is too many people out there that do things considered "evil" by others and they dont feel bad ffor it. In fact, they may very well be happy doing these things. Its like......as humans are evolving.......they are becoming more intelligent and less dependent on the belief in god. Its like the idea of god gives mankind a sense of security. I think that idea of evil makes no sense at all. Which kind of makes the idea of good nonsense also. Is good/evil an instinct? Do we designate things to be instinct since we believe in them? How do you know its a matter of instinct? [right][snapback]676044[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Good and evil are not based on pleasure and pain, there is a certain relation, but the basis or objective morality is transcendent values which are to some degree perceivable in the structure of nature (ie., natural law). Many times the good in a situation requires suffering, and the pleasurable scenario is objectively evil. An extreme example would be Jeffery Dahmer (sp), who probably got pleasure out of murdering and canibalizing people, but this does not make it a good. And on the other side of the coin, living the moral life involves regular sacrifices and often suffering in order to do the right thing. "Humans are becoming more intelligent and less dependent on belief in God" ?? Interesting... I see no evidence of humans becoming more intelligent. Certainly man has a more complete knowledge of many things, but we are also stupider at certain things. And I still see the same stupidity and barbarism of the ancient world, the main difference is we have more stuff and more distractions so that many people are so wrapped up in the cult of self and consumerism or the idolatry of human endeavor that they are pacified from the reality that without God life is absurd and meaningless. I wouldn't call it an increase in intelligence, I'd call it decadence and blind corruption. And I think it's funny how in one argument athiests will say that belief in God is this terrible thing that makes people crazy and obsessed with going to hell and feeling judged at every moment, and then in another argument belief in God is portrayed as this fluffy, pat-on-the-back, feel good coping mechanism. It's just amusing to me. Anyway, a superficial belief in God can include these types of things in some cases perhaps, but if you really think such a formula can encapsulate the lives and experiences of the saints I'm afraid you are terribly wrong. Belief in God, and the experience of God, are in fact vastly more profound and involved than anything that simple reductionism can account for. It is realizing and embracing the fundamental Mystery of all being. Not assuming that all of reality can be reduced to a few pithy statements that are ultimately absurd and don't really explain anything but only scratch the surface. My impression is that if you really pursue science (pick one, physics, biology, mathematics, astronomy) to it's depths, you inevitably approach the impenetrable face of Mystery. This event horizon, as it were, can only be entered in the darkness of faith and the silent encounter with the Infinite. Words and images are no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:06 PM']yea, we certainly designate things that afflict pain to be evil and things that make us feel happy to be good. This, however, differs from person to person. There is too many people out there that do things considered "evil" by others and they dont feel bad ffor it. In fact, they may very well be happy doing these things. Its like......as humans are evolving.......they are becoming more intelligent and less dependent on the belief in god. Its like the idea of god gives mankind a sense of security. I think that idea of evil makes no sense at all. Which kind of makes the idea of good nonsense also. Is good/evil an instinct? Do we designate things to be instinct since we believe in them? How do you know its a matter of instinct? [right][snapback]676044[/snapback][/right] [/quote]Let's keep it simple. Don't muddle your thinking by considering other people's judgement calls. You didn't answer my questions (except partially). Instead of jumping around to various arguments, stick with something. You can't answer a math question by randomly opening the book, nor can you answer your 'god' questions without order. The way you opened this thread, it seemed that you are claiming the existence of 'evil' made it logically impossible for the existence of a god. The preponderonce of evidence and reason makes it most likely and reasonable that there is a 'god'. Logic and reason further illuminates the nature of this 'being' or 'entity'. The most illogical and unreasonable conclusion is that of an aetheist. If you seriously want to answer your questions, start with one and follow your thoughts and others responses to a conclusion. Intellectual honesty is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:18 PM']also let us not forget that the church and government used to be one. hmmmm........could it be that the government was trying to maintain order in society? Afterall, religion was introduced to the romans because the emporer didnt like the permiscuous life style his daughter was living and he looked around at his society and saw that they were permiscous also. [right][snapback]676060[/snapback][/right] [/quote] History renders this claim nonsensical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='jasJis' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:30 PM']Let's keep it simple. Don't muddle your thinking by considering other people's judgement calls. You didn't answer my questions (except partially). Instead of jumping around to various arguments, stick with something. You can't answer a math question by randomly opening the book, nor can you answer your 'god' questions without order. The way you opened this thread, it seemed that you are claiming the existence of 'evil' made it logically impossible for the existence of a god. The preponderonce of evidence and reason makes it most likely and reasonable that there is a 'god'. Logic and reason further illuminates the nature of this 'being' or 'entity'. The most illogical and unreasonable conclusion is that of an aetheist. If you seriously want to answer your questions, start with one and follow your thoughts and others responses to a conclusion. Intellectual honesty is required. [right][snapback]676072[/snapback][/right] [/quote] i agree with most of what you are saying..........its more unreasonable to not believe in god than it is to believe in god. They are both unreasonable though. One might say that he/she has faith in no god. That is the only position that an atheist can logically hold. The something would be faith..........the nothing would be no god. Its hard not to muddle my thinking by looking at the way other people live their lives. They say they are happy........why shouldnt i believe them? Whats wrong with happiness? nothing right? I firlmly believe that they are not demons from hell. The devil doesnt create.......he destroys. So the devil didnt create demons in flesh and blood to roam the earth. Gays, murderers, child molestors, etc. are not demons by any means. They dont feel right or wrong for doing what they do..........they just do it. Gays claiim they feel right for what they are doing. I believe them. Its more reasonable to believe what they are saying than it is to believe there is a god. The whole idea of these things we call evil just doesnt make any sense. Would you send these people to hell if you had the power to? I dont think anybody really wants anybody to go to hell. As a matter of fact......they wouldnt allow it if they had the power. Its all predestination.......god created them knowing they would be doomed right? Sorry if i didnt answer every one of your quiestions perhaps you should list them and i will answer each one from the list. I know somebody listed like 2 quiestions and i thought i answered them all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:26 PM']so how do you know about anything that happend in the past.....world war 1 or 2........for example [right][snapback]676065[/snapback][/right] [/quote] better methods of documenting history has evolved over the years. Newspapers, media, books......etc. The history of jesus of nazereth was written until years after his death. That means that it was passed down by word of mouth. We all know what happens with this. Take a 100 people........line them up single file..........tell the first person to pass a message to the person behind him and also to tell that person to pass the message. By the time it gets to the end it is slightly changed..........why?.........well some people cant hear as good as others some just want to change the message for the fun of it. Imagine something like this over a period of 50-100 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:32 PM']History renders this claim nonsensical. [right][snapback]676074[/snapback][/right] [/quote] its what the history channel said...........do you contest? I guess i dont understand what you are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted August 7, 2005 Author Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='jasJis' date='Aug 7 2005, 09:25 AM']EXACTLY CORRECT !! Therein lies the begining of the answer you are seeking. Intstinctively, we recognize Good and Evil and know they are opposed to each other. You recognize the bad things happen to good people, and good things happen for bad people, seemingly, indiscriminately and unfairly. Before we continue, two questions: Am I right so far? Do you recognize that our good/evil acts affect others? [right][snapback]675843[/snapback][/right] [/quote] our actions have an effect on others...........things we call good actions or bad actions or even neither. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 04:45 PM']its what the history channel said...........do you contest? I guess i dont understand what you are saying. [right][snapback]676177[/snapback][/right] [/quote] hehe, I've heard some whoppers on the history channel. No offense to you or anyone else, but phooey on the history channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 7 2005, 05:52 PM']hehe, I've heard some whoppers on the history channel. No offense to you or anyone else, but phooey on the history channel. [right][snapback]676183[/snapback][/right] [/quote] On that much we completely agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 [quote name='Brother Adam' date='Aug 7 2005, 04:54 PM']On that much we completely agree. [right][snapback]676186[/snapback][/right] [/quote] LOL.. it's about time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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