another problem with evil

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Aug 6 2005, 07:13 PM']It is that simple. You will never find the "proof" you need until you start believing the proof you already have.
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there is no proof

[jasJis]

[quote name='Semalsia' date='Aug 6 2005, 07:09 PM'][quote name='jasJis']"Evil" is not a sentinent being that exists, but is the status of a sentinent being that acts against Good. Consider who and what Lucifer is.[/quote]

I don't understand how you can say that the Devil is evil. All he did was disobey God... does that really make one evil?

"Acts against Good" of course means "acts against God". But God can do anything and still be considered good, because he can't go against himself.

God has killed and tortured great amount of people. That doesn't apparently make him evil. But when Devil doesn't do what God tells him to do, he's suddenly evil. Is that really fair? I mean, who wouldn't go against God in that situation?

Are you sure it's not the Evil you worship?
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[/quote]What's not fair? Give the the exact situation. What did God tell Lucifer to do that Luciver 'had' to refuse.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 6 2005, 07:44 PM']there is no proof
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Do you have any proof that there is no proof? If you insist that there is none, then there isnt any.

There is plenty of proof around, you just have to recognize it. God isnt going to just come down from heaven on a cloud and hand it to you. Continue to pray that the Lord increases you faith.

As St. Thomas Aquinas said, "The light of faith makes us see what we believe."

[HomeTeamFamily]

[quote]or our goal would be to be more of an evil person and to eventually go to hell. That brings another thing to mind............why would god create someone who is gonna go to hell. I hold god responsible for this person going to hell since he created him knowing this. [/quote]

this is something i actually was just asking my friends about.....

and im hoping you can get the jist of what im saying because its going to be hard to type out and not see some potential problems with it but here goes, ill try to clairify

God wants us to love him freely. if everyone he created loved him perfectly and went to heaven, there would be no point in him creating us.....we would just be clones

free will allows us to distinguish ourselves from others and truly and freely love god as he intended for us to do

not doing this is what sends us to hell.....God doesnt do it, we choose hell by not loving as we should

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Aug 6 2005, 10:07 PM']Do you have any proof that there is no proof? If you insist that there is none, then there isnt any. 

There is plenty of proof around, you just have to recognize it. God isnt going to just come down from heaven on a cloud and hand it to you. Continue to pray that the Lord increases you faith.

As St. Thomas Aquinas said, "The light of faith makes us see what we believe."
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no i dont have proof as far as god not existing..........just as there is no proof that he exists. So why should i worry about the existence of god? Do i want god to exist? Yes. But as far as this arguement would take us......we would both end at the same conclusions. Honestly, i dont know if i want faith.............i dont know if i want to live. hmmmmmm......free will huh.

Edited August 7, 2005 by infinitelord1

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='VoloHumilisEsse' date='Aug 7 2005, 12:28 AM']this is something i actually was just asking my friends about.....

and im hoping you can get the jist of what im saying because its going to be hard to type out and not see some potential problems with it but here goes, ill try to clairify

God wants us to love him freely.  if everyone he created loved him perfectly and went to heaven, there would be no point in him creating us.....we would just be clones

free will allows us to distinguish ourselves from others and truly and freely love god as he intended for us to do

not doing this is what sends us to hell.....God doesnt do it, we choose hell by not loving as we should
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How do you [b]know [/b]that god wants us to love him freely? You dont even [b]know[/b] if he exists. How do we [b]know[/b] if the decisions we make will lead us to eternal flame in hell?

Dont you see what i am saying here? we dont know anything. its all about beliefs. So the question is...........how do i choose to believe that there is a god? I see problems with the whole idea of evil. It just doesnt seem logical. It seems like ultimatelly there is no point for our existence. So what is this? A bet between satan and yahweh to see how many souls will sufffer and how many will prosper? Just doesnt seem like justice to me. Seems kind of unfair as far as we go.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:47 AM']no i dont have proof as far as god not existing..........just as there is no proof that he exists. So why should i worry about the existence of god? Do i want god to exist? Yes. But as far as this arguement would take us......we would both end at the same conclusions. Honestly, i dont know if i want faith.............i dont know if i want to live.
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Did Jesus come to earth? Did he die for us? Does he love us? Then you have your proof.

It is quite ignorant to say that there is no proof.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:53 AM']Did Jesus come to earth? Did he die for us? Does he love us? Then you have your proof.

It is quite ignorant to say that there is no proof.
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jesus' existence is not proof that there is a god. There have been many "messiahs" throughout history. how are we supposed to know which one is the true one........let alone if there is a true one. We dont [b]know[/b] if there is a god. Believe me........i would like to accept all this. I just dont [b]know [/b]how or why. Given the position im in..........as far as my homosexualtiy issue goes............i dont know how to believe in free will. As far as a reason for things happening goes..........i think the reason itself says that this is all predestination. Honestly i dont know a human being who would willingly go against the [b]known [/b]will of god. So its either........follow this thing called the bible or dont..............why not? We dont know.

Edited August 7, 2005 by infinitelord1

[Laudate_Dominum]

The most definitive proof is to live to Gospel.

“your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.” - 1 Cor 2:4

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='Aug 7 2005, 03:00 AM']The most definitive proof is to live to Gospel.

“your faith should not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.” - 1 Cor 2:4
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no human being is perfect........by god's standards. So nobody can live fully up to the gospel. we can try, but it is inevitable that we will fail.

[Laudate_Dominum]

The point was that true faith comes from encountering God in the Spirit, not arguments and stuff.

I am just thinking about if I was struggling with my faith, I don't think I would turn to debates, I would turn to Christ and entrust myself to His mercy. He sees our efforts based on the degree of temptation and of Grace that we have. Fidelity and trust are more important than perfection.

[jasJis]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 03:06 AM']no human being is perfect........by god's standards. So nobody can live fully up to the gospel. we can try, but it is inevitable that we will fail.
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[/quote]EXACTLY CORRECT !! Therein lies the begining of the answer you are seeking.

Intstinctively, we recognize Good and Evil and know they are opposed to each other.
You recognize the bad things happen to good people, and good things happen for bad people, seemingly, indiscriminately and unfairly.

Before we continue, two questions:
Am I right so far?
Do you recognize that our good/evil acts affect others?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 7 2005, 02:59 AM']jesus' existence is not proof that there is a god. There have been many "messiahs" throughout history. how are we supposed to know which one is the true one........let alone if there is a true one. We dont [b]know[/b] if there is a god. Believe me........i would like to accept all this. I just dont [b]know [/b]how or why. Given the position im in..........as far as my homosexualtiy issue goes............i dont know how to believe in free will. As far as a reason for things happening goes..........i think the reason itself says that this is all predestination. Honestly i dont know a human being who would willingly go against the [b]known [/b]will of god. So its either........follow this thing called the bible or dont..............why not? We dont know.
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Bud, I have been in the same boat as you. Just dont over analyze things.
We have been over this messiah thing on other boards, and all of the things atheists pump out is just word play. Its easy to make anyone or anything seem like it never existed. How do we know Julius Caesar existed?

We know the apostles existed, by their writings. You just need to have faith that what they speak of is true, since they were the ones who were with Jesus.

What I suggest is that you read some writings by saints. The saints knew that God existed, because in his infinite grace, he granted them so much wisdom and faith. Believe me, they knew a thing or two about God.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Good points. I would just stress that Faith, and the heart of the Christian life, is encountering God in Christ and living in that Presence. Without this living and personal experience, I can't imagine having faith. Faith and hope require trust, and you have to know Christ personally to love Him and thus truly have faith and trust in Him. This does not mean there are not times of darkness, but we should not let ourselves become so clouded that we forget all the miracles that God has worked in our souls and in our lives. These should sustain us.
Just as Christ worked wonders to build the faith of the Apostles and strengthen them for the times of darkness ahead. But even if we fail and fall we should not despair.
After the Apostles abandoned Christ in His Passion, and many doubted Him, He sought them out, risen from the dead, and His words were not condemnation but rather He greeted them saying, "Peace be with you".

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='fidei defensor' date='Aug 7 2005, 01:24 PM']Bud, I have been in the same boat as you. Just dont over analyze things.
We have been over this messiah thing on other boards, and all of the things atheists pump out is just word play. Its easy to make anyone or anything seem like it never existed. How do we know Julius Caesar existed?

We know the apostles existed, by their writings. You just need to have faith that what they speak of is true, since they were the ones who were with Jesus.

What I suggest is that you read some writings by saints.  The saints knew that God existed, because in his infinite grace, he granted them so much wisdom and faith. Believe me, they knew a thing or two about God.
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its a fact that jesus of nazereth existed..........its not a fact who was who he said he was. Yea, ur right........its all about faith. Something that i certainly dont have much of. LOL........i have no reason to.