Theory of Evolution

[Brother Adam]

[quote] 3. Dinosaurs and “humans” did not coexist. The death of the last dinosaur and the appearance of the first “human” (genus homo) is estimated to be separated by about 64 or 65 million years[/quote]

The so called 'proof' offered is likely false, as the earth is not 65 million years old. I'll look at the article later tonight, but my guess is it is based off of sedimentary layers and carbon dating.

[quote]Science isn't about destroying God it is about learning about the world.[/quote]

You are correct, science isn't about destroying God, however theory of evolution posed by scientists is anti-God and is a cornerstone that athiests stand on in proving that God does not exist.

[quote]And evolution isn't about humans coming from ameobas it is about species adapting to their envronments.[/quote]

Yes, it is. It states that life came into being without the help of any higher power and all life developed from a single cell organism. If you reject macro-evolution, than you would be in line with creationists. Usually when people speak of 'evolution' they are not merely speaking of micro-evolution, which is scientific fact, but macro-evolution which is denied by many good scientists.

[morostheos]

Evolution isn't about who created the Earth, it is about how it was created.

I agree with everything that was stated in this article, from ZENIT:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=36904"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=36904[/url]

[track2004]

Wow that was a really good article morostheos.

Bro:
Just because athiests use a scientific theory to try to disprove there is a God doesn't necessarly mean the theory is immoral or incorrect.

And just like moros said, the thoery is just about how it was done, not for what reason. The theory of evolution, macro-evolution, follows the same steps as Genesis does in the Bible: water, fish, animals, humans.

I personally think God created the universe, I think He set it up to evolve and watched over it as it did. I think God generally lets the world do what it wants and sees how things develop, until we interceed for His help.

For this discussion, at least on my part, to continue I need some evidence to back up what you are saying. I have never heard that the earth was less than 65 million years old. I have not heard of any dating method better than sedimentary or carbon dating. I don't know of any scientific evidence that backs up the claims you are making and if you don't provide explinations or evidence contrary to what I've said I can't take your opinion seriously. If this discussion is going to continue and if maybe I am going to learn about what you are trying to tell me I need more than just blanket statements that say what I've learned and read is wrong. This isn't just about arguing til one of us gives up and leaves it is suppoesed to be about education.

Cheers.

[morostheos]

I think that God is intimately involved in every moment of creation, even as things evolve and as creation continues to happen. I believe that evolution is us seeing God's involvement in creation. The atheist scientists are stumped as to how evolution could happen randomly when all systems tend toward chaos by the second law of thermodynamics as marielapin said. In fact, it has them so stumped they've created a new science out of it, called "complexity science." Basically they're searching for a reason why order is created out of chaos. As Catholics, we've already got the answer - GOD

[God's Errand Girl]

[quote name='track2004' date='Aug 5 2005, 04:20 PM']Personally I know that no human being was alive when the dinosaurs were.  There is scientific evidence for that.

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[url="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4419.asp"]http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4419.asp[/url]

Just some food for thought...

[philothea]

[quote name='God's Errand Girl' date='Aug 6 2005, 11:10 AM'][url="http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4419.asp"]http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2/4419.asp[/url]

Just some food for thought...
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Well....

I can't say any of it was convincing, and some of it was downright nonsensical, like:

[quote]‘Cope’s Rule’ describes the tendency of fossils (e.g. shellfish) to get bigger as you trace them upward through the geological strata. But why should evolution make things generally bigger? Indeed, living forms of fossils tend to be smaller than their fossil ancestors. A better explanation may be the sorting action of water.[/quote]
Since the theory of evolution starts with one-celled creatures, and the larger (in general) a life form gets the more sophisticated the systems it requires become, it does kind of support the theory that the smaller fossils should be found further down.

And while I haven't done any experiments myself (neither, it seems have they) I don't see how water brings large fossils to the top. I believe in a viscous medium like water, lighter, smaller things are suspended longer.

Oh well.

[track2004]

In response to the tree example about sedimentary layers being relatively quickly forming, there is a rebuttal to that statement [url="http://www.creationtheory.org/YoungEarth/Hartman-3.shtml"]here[/url]. The rest of that link is a pretty comprehensive on arguments against the Young Earth Creation theory. It explains rates of decay for elements, how scientists try to figure out how old the earth and universe are, and other YEC points. The main page is [url="http://www.creationtheory.org/YoungEarth/"]found here[/url].

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='track2004' date='Aug 6 2005, 02:05 PM']In response to the tree example about sedimentary layers being relatively quickly forming, there is a rebuttal to that statement [url="http://www.creationtheory.org/YoungEarth/Hartman-3.shtml"]here[/url].  The rest of that link is a pretty comprehensive on arguments against the Young Earth Creation theory.  It explains rates of decay for elements, how scientists try to figure out how old the earth and universe are, and other YEC points.  The main page is [url="http://www.creationtheory.org/YoungEarth/"]found here[/url].
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Yes, let's quote from an anti-Christian site to prove evolution. That's the Spirit!

[quote]If God looks like a man, does God have a penis? What does he use it for?[/quote]

[quote]In short, the only way to interpret Genesis without dogmatically defying everything we have rationally determined about the workings of the universe is to treat it as pure myth, [/quote]

Yes, because absolute truth hinges on our own current understanding of the universe, something which completely changes every thousand years or so.

Edited August 6, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

"A thousand years ago man knew the earth was the center of the universe.

500 years ago man knew the earth was flat.

Imagine what you will know tomorrow." - MIB

[track2004]

Bro you're still just saying I'm wrong with out anything backing it up or providing another explination for how things happened. I'm outta here. PM me about evolution if you want me to come back.

[Michael D.]

Brother Adam:

You are wrong for attacking track for citing an "anti-Christian" site. She cited that site because it used scientific evidence to back up its claims, not because of its particular attitute toward one particular group of people (the YEC).

Either way its way more evidence than you have contributed to back up your own claims...

...Though i think you have done a nice job of proving Track's point with your last post. Because it illustrates exactly how the scientific process works. We did think the earth was the center... then we found evidence to the contray and revised our view. We did think it was flat(sorta)... but found evidence to the contray and revised our view. And right now we do think that evolution was the method by which the diverse quantity of life came about on this planet... untill we find better evidence to the contrary... real scientific evidence that informs a conclusion rather than a conclusion that informs how we read the evidence.... Untill we find this better evidence (if it exists) evolution is the best [b]THEORY [/b] that we have... but it is always open for revision... as you pointed out.

[Brother Adam]

[quote]You are wrong for attacking track for citing an "anti-Christian" site. She cited that site because it used scientific evidence to back up its claims, not because of its particular attitute toward one particular group of people (the YEC). [/quote]

Michael,

Welcome to phatmass. No, I am not wrong for noting that the site is decidely anti-Christian, as almost all evolutionary sites are. It helps prove my point that evotlion is decidily anti-Christian and some Christians try to force Christian beliefs into evolutionary theory. It doesn't work. Either evolution is true, and there is no higher power, or evolution is not true, and a higher power does exist.

[quote]Either way its way more evidence than you have contributed to back up your own claims...
[/quote]

Just as our friend Mulls doesn't debate Catholics on this board because he is far outnumbered, I don't debate 'thiestic evolutionists' on this board because I am the sole creationist willing to debate the point of view. There are plenty of groups, Answers in Genesis, Institute for Creation Research, Koble Institute for Creationism (Catholic), that offer arguments and views. As others here know, CatholicsforCreation is currently being built and will be open the middle of this month.

[quote]And right now we do think that evolution was the method by which the diverse quantity of life came about on this planet... untill we find better evidence to the contrary... but it is always open for revision... as you pointed out.[/quote]

"we" being evolutionists, but the claims of evolution are, as you pointed out, not air tight, in fact give it a thousand years and I wouldn't be surprised if 'macro-evolution' is seen as another scientific embarressment. Perhaps for right now my purpose here on creationism is to note that Catholics are allowed to believe in the Holy Scriptures, EVEN Genesis 1 and 2 despite that it is not the popular opinion.

[Michael D.]

Woah, lets back up here a second and focus where this is going.
Let me tell you what I think.

1. Evolution is a valid [b]scientific theory[/b]. There is scientific evidence to back this theory up and as such it has become generally accepted in the scientific field and the general public.

2. Evolution could be wrong because it is just a theory, no definitive proof has been found. If it is wrong thats ok because that is how we as a species learns. If better evidence to the contray is found the theory will either be updated or thrown out entirely as is in keeping with the scientific method.

3. I do not believe in evolution. I think its a good theory. That is not a belief.

4. Thinking evolution is a good theory and a belief in God are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to do both.

5. Evolution is not anti-catholic. A theory on it's own can't be anti-catholic at all.
Some people, "evolutionists" as they are called sometimes, can be anti-catholic, but the theory itself cannot.

6. To my knowledge there is no teaching from the church either way. Which means that we can think what ever we want about evolution.

This is basically what i think about evolution. If you want to debate my assertations, lets do that. This way we can at least be on the same page, because I am not sure we are really debating the same thing.

[White Knight]

[quote name='Michael D.' date='Aug 6 2005, 09:13 PM']Woah, lets back up here a second and focus where this is going.
Let me tell you what I think.

1. Evolution is a valid [b]scientific theory[/b]. There is scientific evidence to back this theory up and as such it has become generally accepted in the scientific field and the general public.

2. Evolution could be wrong because it is just a theory, no definitive proof has been found. If it is wrong thats ok because that is how we as a species learns. If better evidence to the contray is found the theory will either be updated or thrown out entirely as is in keeping with the scientific method.

3. I do not believe in evolution. I think its a good theory. That is not a belief.

4. Thinking evolution is a good theory and a belief in God are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to do both.

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[b][color=purple]Actually if you study the Theory carefully and try to link it with Creation you will find that they are incompadable with each other. No way can Evolution work with Creation, its one or the other.

Creation takes alittle bit of Faith to believe in, and little evidence to support it, but its still by far more possible than the alternative.


Evolution requires alot of faith, in alot of invalid evidence that has yet to be proven all the way.


Evolution is an awsome theory, but it just is not capiable of being reality. its too flawed. and unfortunately why so many people believe in Evolution still is because there aren't very many strong enough agurements to dismiss it period.[/color][/b]

[b][color=red]Science has even admitted to making certian forgeries to actually try to back up the theroy of evolution. this was discussed back in the early 20's back when Creation was still taught in Schools. When you look at certian so called ancestors of the human race. why so few of them found? that look so much different than others? if this were fact there would many, hundreds maybe even thousands of these ancestor fossils. If thousands or even more were found then the theroy of evolution would be more creditable overall. But since Man even for its low articology skills back then were able to forge and forge very well.[/color][/b]

[b][color=orange]The strongest Anti-Evolution claim is the fact that Evolution denines a Designer over all. I know many people say "No they dont." but it is true, why? because Evolution and Science like to prove things to be logical, in everything, in every way. Evolution and Science, do not like to rely on theory as much as people would think. its funny because alot of science is based on theroy 97% theroy 3% precent fact. Evolution is all theory it has NO Creditable evidence at all to prove anything.[/color][/b]

[color=green][b]Fossils, do not stay preversed that long. they go into dust, as does everything else over time. Okay, Fossils may stay preversed for a few or maybe 5 thousand years with possible (Possible, however unlikely, still remaining DNA on the structures) very possible that they could survive that length of time. but they begin to disappear slowly overtime.[/b][/color]

[color=blue][b]Now when you have 65 million years of so called preversed fossils, by the time you even found it, you wouldn't see anything but dust. Even Over that time just after a few hundred years things begin to decay especially small bodies like human beings. If you tried to dig up George Washington from his grave, you wouldn't find anything except bones in there. and they would be disentergrating over that length of time that they've already been in the grave. You could never find a whole human skeleton, after that only short of time. Think about this. Live living beings are in the ground, crawling and eating things in the ground. especally worms.[/b][/color]


[b]Now logically one could see why Dinosours would stay preversed longer and still have bone structures. its because of their massive size difference, compared to human beings. There litterally, the size of small buildings sometimes. they vared. so ya it would take longer for them to disappear, some thousands of years. But not millions.[/b]


Thats all for now.

Edited August 7, 2005 by White Knight

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm not really an evolutionist, but I disagree that evolution and God's creative act are incompatible.
Saying God created the universe with evolution in mind and let it do it's thing seems a bit too deistic too me, and a step toward agnosticism. And stressing the point that this whole process was guided providentially doesn't really resolve the tension for me.

What does resolve the tension for me is a metaphysical and cosmological shift in perspective.
The entire history of the cosmos is one in the mind of God; as a single moment. All that exists in this universe was created in the first instant that the universe began. We all existed in potency and the entire unfolding of time and space is simply that single act of God understood and experienced through our temporarality.
I understand the creation account not so much as a scientific or historical presentation of the exact processes of creation, but rather as a Theological and symbolic revelation of the meaning and structure of God's creative "thought" in temporal and material creation, particularly in relation to man. But this is not to deny the literal aspects of Genesis I and II.
Mystical reflection on Genesis I and II can reveal the inner texture of created reality, and it's continuity with the spiritual order; essentially its logos, or logoi spermatikoi (not in a neo-Platonic sense, but in a Laudate_Dominist sense, haha).