Church Infallibility - Objection 1

[thessalonian]

Let me ask you a question and then I will respond. Do you believe that the faith has been "delivered once for all"?

[LouisvilleFan]

"Humane Vitae" = prophesy

Ergo, Pope Paul VI = holy prophet

[reyb]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1854171' date='May 1 2009, 08:25 AM']Let me ask you a question and then I will respond. Do you believe that the faith has been "delivered once for all"?[/quote]

What do you mean by 'delivered once for all'? Do you ask me if I believe that all of us have 'faith'?

[thessalonian]

[quote name='reyb' post='1859064' date='May 5 2009, 09:50 PM']What do you mean by 'delivered once for all'? Do you ask me if I believe that all of us have 'faith'?[/quote]


No was the faith delivered once for all, meaning that there is nothing new added, that we only grow in understanding of what has been revealed.

[reyb]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1859316' date='May 5 2009, 11:17 PM']No was the faith delivered once for all, meaning that there is nothing new added, that we only grow in understanding of what has been revealed.[/quote]

Are you referring to the ‘faith’ of circumcised and uncircumcised in Romans 3:27-31

[color="#FF0000"]27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith . 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law. [/color]
NIV

Rom 3:27-31

[color="#FF0000"]Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. [/color]NKJV

[thessalonian]

Seems you want to dance instead of answer the question. I'll pass.

[Guest]

[quote name='reyb' post='1851111' date='Apr 28 2009, 12:46 AM']Nobody can convice you as long as you are 'faithful' but to believe a lie and still cling into it, is also called 'stubborness' - and it is up to you to find out the truth.[/quote]

please
i've searched tons of anticatholic sites trying to find the reason the church isnt true. ive honestly searched with my heart and soul for the true church and i know its the catholic church. you are the one that is stubborn bro. and i have even realised the false prophet may attempt to come through the church to work with the antichrist. but its ok because if it happens it wont be a real pope it will be an anti pope. and the gates of hell wont prevail and the true believes will know the antipope is a fake and it wont effect the true church and true believers. who will be in trouble though are the catholics without any faith and who know nothing about prophecy and are in love with this world. they will be decieved by an antipope and the antichrist into accpeting the mark of the beast.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Guest

[reyb]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1859616' date='May 6 2009, 12:59 PM']Seems you want to dance instead of answer the question. I'll pass.[/quote]

I have no intention to ignore or derail our discussion but, I am just trying to fully understand what you are saying. It seems you are asking me, ‘Is faith already ‘complete’ – because you said ‘delivered once for all’ - while knowledge is still increasing?’. Thus, I quoted Romans 3:27-31 with emphasis on ‘Rom 3:30 ‘…[color="#FF0000"]since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith[/color]….(NKJV)’, and we know the obvious difference between circumcised - meaning chosen people who are trusted by God’s word - and the uncircumcised.

If the ‘chosen’ are justify by faith as well as the ‘uncircumcised’ are justify by that same ‘faith’ - then it seems ‘faith is delivered once for all’ as you have said – and this statement rings in my mind, which we need to discuss thoroughly.

....to continue.

[reyb]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1859689' date='May 6 2009, 02:59 PM']please
i've searched tons of anticatholic sites trying to find the reason the church isnt true. ive honestly searched with my heart and soul for the true church and i know its the catholic church. you are the one that is stubborn bro. and i have even realised the false prophet may attempt to come through the church to work with the antichrist. but its ok because if it happens it wont be a real pope it will be an anti pope. and the gates of hell wont prevail and the true believes will know the antipope is a fake and it wont effect the true church and true believers. who will be in trouble though are the catholics without any faith and who know nothing about prophecy and are in love with this world. they will be decieved by an antipope and the antichrist into accpeting the mark of the beast.[/quote]

As long as you have faith, ‘hardness’ is for sure to follow, and in a sense, all of us have ‘hardness’ because all of us have faith. But whether this ‘hardness’ means stubbornness, is something you have to discover and we have to discuss.

For example and I know, I am a stubborn person in your eyes and you too, as I said, are a stubborn person in my eyes. Or let us say, I am a stubborn and nonsensical person in the eyes of those who believe in the existence of historical Jesus, and obviously they are many – in view of the fact that I do not accept the truthfulness of such existence which they say it is true - while on the other hand, those who believe in this historical Jesus who is supposed to be the Jesus of the scripture, are all stubborn in our eyes, because as I have said, ‘it is a lie’.

It happens because, all of us have our own reason why we give such comment and that reason is our awareness of the truth, alongside with our true intention to one another. In short, the comment about ‘stubbornness’ depends on who is looking to whom.

But I am relentless in asking question because I trusted you…ask and you will find it.

[thessalonian]

The faith is what we are to believe and so what I mean is that it was all given to the Church. i.e. is there new revelation. We grow in understanding of what was delivered individually and as a Church but it is all there for us to believe. It has been delivered to all. There is no Jew nor Greek.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Peace be with you all,
Sorry i didn't read all the posts, for me the gospels are infalible and all other books in the bible aren't. Even Paul stated men prophesy imperfectly and reveal the will of GOD imperfectly...soi guess the statement has been issued by the holy right hand of GOD, LORD of LORDS,MESSIAH, CHRIST, JESUS, and though i understand some need some market research but if we believe and trust like a child that the gospels are the living word and have been issued by the GOD the father, through CHRIST Jesus, as the truth.We will also believe heaven has already one and that it is only the Devil and it's legions(not nescisarily people) whom are damned for eternity.I think Jesus often talked about Ghenna a temporal hell possibly, and that we heap those coals on our own heads in one manner or another.Jesus also states that the only unforgiveble sin(when he was being accused of being belzebul and casting out demons with the powers of demons) is the sin against the holy spirit(Mark 4:28-29[might be good to read from the heading]) and is a warning to people that all good issues from GOD and no good should be denied. For me i guess and i'm glad i'm here (Alleluia) and was actually examining this tonight in that yes miraculous physical healings happen, as well as miraculous heart and soul healings, and these miracles are marvelous no doubt and when such good happens GOD is carrying the person and lifting them up like an oscar for the jubilation of all mankind, and also i guess sometimes we can feel "well why is this not happening to me" but to believe that a good work is happening in you still without constant consolation(not that we reject such consolation from GOD) means that we are learning to walk the straight and narrow and soon to jog and than hopefully run as most do...and we need to count the aboundance of miracles of grace and gifts(spiritual and physical[including the food in our belly each day] procured through the tender love of GOD whom allows us to water our own seed through persistance in prayer,eucharist,confession,reading the bible and various other holy books, gathering with family blood and water,sharing the truth etc etc...that our faith will bring forth fruits of hope and that eventually one day through our labourings with christ that infact GOD will take on the maintenance and watering of our garden and we may rest and enjoy the view. So again to have a child like faith in the fruit of the gospels and found in the old and new testament(with some sifiting to find what branch of the vine will has ripe fruit for you at whatever time in your life and i guess than study it.) I guess sometimes where stumbling around through some stuff blindly, and i guess that is when we need to turn back to the gospels and read them and check our grounds, and figure out law of GOD from law of man)


anything contrary to the faith in here please dust(or someone else) illuminate it that i may not be the cause of anothers fall.
GOD is LOVE
GOD is GOOD
JESUS is LORD (GOD saves)

Create a greatful heart in me O'LORD'
that i may love you as i ought,
and the life you have given.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Tab'le Du'Bah-Rye' post='1860742' date='May 7 2009, 01:17 PM']Peace be with you all,
Sorry i didn't read all the posts, for me the gospels are infalible and all other books in the bible aren't. Even Paul stated men prophesy imperfectly and reveal the will of GOD imperfectly[/quote]

That is not logical.
ALL the books in the Bible were writtten by men under the inspiration of God, and ALL guarenteed by the Church. So if the rest of the books were not infalliable nether are the Gospels. Remember the Church came before the New Testament did, and the Church chose what books went into the New Testament, and the Church is the one that guarentees they are the Word of GOD.

If you want to persue this discussion start a new thread.

[Tab'le De'Bah-Rye]

Peace be with you all,

Just reading some of the posts, i'm worried that an over indulgence and mis-understanding of the book of revelations has crept into non-denominational christianity and we as R.C christian youth are taking on board some errenous comments and possible thought patterns in this area.
I'm no scholar on the book of revelations and unsure of the R.C.C teachings so will not go into detail...I just feel we should preach christ above and beyond...anti-christ...false prophesy and such thngs, not as ignorance and a sleeping on the job like the disciples in the garden but as an "okay sure i've read revelations, now lets not dwell on the anti christ, false prophet and the beast, but lets minister each other with the gospels,the other letters,the wheat within the old testament, and just to humbly rebuke any such behaviour(anti christ,false prophesy,boasting of Sin,Gossip etc etc) in the Spirit of Mercy,that all may drink from the well spirng of the living waters, in the hope that the person will confess that Chrsit may rebuke such Evil Spirits if infact the behaviour is contrary to the commandments and statuets of the Law of GOD including that what is issued by the christ of "Love one another as i have loved you" the Gospel of Forgiveness,and the preceeding letters issued by the Holy Spirit.



May somone of greater scholastics on this manner please make a post..And please somone do, i'm unsure even if i have the authority to comment on such matters?Or whether it is polite to just issue the passage i have written, or contrary to faith or R.C.C teachings? I'm new to Phat Mass and honestly am also new to the faith in the manner that i have only been back at church for 4-5 years, family attendanced failed between the ages of 12-14 and am now 30.If the post is okay no comment needed and will accept am doing what is christ like.

GOD is GOOD
GOD is LOVE
JESUS is LORD(GOD saves)
Alleluia


Create a grateful heart in me O'LORD.
that i may love you as i ought,
and the life you have given.
Amen

[thessalonian]

Tab'le Du,

Reading our posts quickly it looks to me like your best bet if you are Catholic would be to get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read where you have questions and also ask here for clarification. It gets in to the inerrancy of scripture and infallibility and revelations and end times. Am I misunderstanding, your Catholic. Please start a thread about what you would like to discuss as what you have posted really doesn't belong here. Christianity has held that all scripture is INERRANT for 2000 years. I say inerrant because writing requires interpretation and so infallible is not really a proper term for it. Yes, I agree that protestants are too focused on what the book of revelations is about. Nobody to date has been raptured and yet everyone has been goo-gah over the Left-behind series. If you are Catholic please be submissive to the Church. It is a humble thing to recongize that it has been around for 2000 years and might have learned a thing or two more than the everyday individual, especially who is new to Christianity.

God bless

[reyb]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1854171' date='May 1 2009, 08:25 AM']Let me ask you a question and then I will respond. Do you believe that the faith has been "delivered once for all"?[/quote]

So you are asking me if I believe - that ‘faith’, which is the ‘complete’ revelation was already given by God to your church (The Roman Catholic Church), while ‘individual faith’ of Catholics is still increasing, and there is no more ‘new revelation’ left that God will give to any man since everything - thru the coming of His Son - was already given.

Do I get your question right?