Shu'a, petros, petra, lithos, all those fun words

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Aug 10 2005, 11:01 AM']I see that on the lexicon it links up to the passages where it is used.  Nowhere does it say it is used in Matt. 16
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well, actually, u'll notice in his post to you that he admits that much. but then, he tries to present this bogus petra/petros distinction and the "overwhelming use of shu`a'" (9 to 6 isn't that overwhelming) to support the idea that the use of kepha for both rocks was a mistranslation.

nice try

[goldenchild17]

Yeah and one can't make a claim of mistranslation on their own authority. She'll need a big following of sources to back that up methinks.

[phatcatholic]

me thinks as well

[goldenchild17]

k now I'm looking for examples of petros being used in the earlier form of Greek poetry. Also examples of petros being used in contemporary works of the Scripture to show that petros was used as different from petra in earlier Greek, and that it was used synonymously in Koine Greek.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='Aug 11 2005, 01:48 PM']k now I'm looking for examples of petros being used in the earlier form of Greek poetry.  Also examples of petros being used in contemporary works of the Scripture to show that petros was used as different from petra in earlier Greek, and that it was used synonymously in Koine Greek.
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wow, that might take some work.......

[Technicoid]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 11 2005, 06:41 PM']wow, that might take some work.......
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Try Euripides Orestes or Heracles. You can search for th word using [url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?lookup=&formentry=0&lang=greek"]this.[/url]

[goldenchild17]

This thing is awesome.

[url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?target=greek%2C1&collection=Any&lookup=petron&formentry=1&template=&searchText=&alts=1&extern=1&group=work&.cgifields=group&.cgifields=alts&.cgifields=type&.cgifields=extern"]http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vor?t...gifields=extern[/url]

That's a search for the word Petron used in Greek Poetry. Now I need to do is find a way to translate a number of them...

[phatcatholic]

for petros, i found this from [i]Heracles[/i], by Euripides

line 1397 in the greek translation reads:[list]pheu:
autou genoimên [i][b]petros[/b][/i] amnêmôn kakôn.
[/list]line 1397 in the english translation reads:[list]Ah! Would I could become a [i][b]stone[/b][/i] upon this spot, oblivious of trouble.
[/list]
for petra, i found this from [i]Description of Greece[/i], by Pausanias

book 10, chapter 37, section 1 in the greek translation reads:[list]tês poleôs de en dexiai duo malista proelthonti ap' autês stadious, [i][b]petra[/b][/i] te estin hupsêlê--moira orous hê petra--kai hieron ep' autês pepoiêmenon estin Artemidos: ergôn tôn Praxitelous, daida echousa têi dexiai kai huper tôn ômôn pharetran, para de autên kuôn en aristerai: megethos de huper tên megistên gunaika to agalma.
[/list]book 10, chapter 37, section 1 in the english translation reads:[list]About two stades off the city there is, on the right, a high [i][b]rock[/b][/i], which forms part of a mountain, with a sanctuary of Artemis built upon it. The image of Artemis is one of the works of Praxiteles; she carries a torch in her right hand and a quiver over her shoulders, while at her left side there is a dog. The image is taller than the tallest woman.
[/list]
i wonder when these two works were written........

Edited August 12, 2005 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

ok, according to [b][url="http://www.crystalinks.com/euripides.html"]this site[/url][/b], [i]Heracles[/i] was written some time between 421-416 B.C.E. (or BC)

according to [url="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/pausanias-bk1.html"][b]this site[/b][/url], the first book of [i]Description of Greece[/i] seems to have been completed after 143 CE (or AD), but before 161CE. No event after 176CE is mentioned in the work.

the gospel of matthew was written sometime between 40-70 AD.

that petra means rock after the writing of the gospel is no surprise. what we need to do is find petros also translated as rock in a work written at the same time or some time after the gospel. if we find this, then we have proven our claim, since we would then have a work from long before the gospel ([i]Heracles[/i]) that translates petros as stone and a work from the same time or after the gospel that translates it as rock.

[phatcatholic]

i think i found the necessary proof:

in [i]Antiquities of the Jews[/i], by Flavius Josephus, petros (or, rather, a form of the word) is translated as "large stone." book 7, section 142 in the [b][url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0145&query=section%3D%232230"]greek translation[/url][/b] reads:[list]tou de basileôs akousantos para tôn angelôn tauta kai dusphorountos phaskontos hamartein autous tôi teichei prosbalontas, deon huponomois kai mêchanêmasin helein peirasthai tên polin, kai taut' echontas paradeigma ton Gedeônos huion Abimelechon, hos epei ton en Thêbais purgon helein ebouleto biai, blêtheis hupo presbutidos [i][b]petrôi[/b][/i] katepese kai andreiotatos ôn dia to duscheres tês epibolês aischrôs apethanen:
[/list]book 7, section 142 in the [b][url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0146&query=book%3D7%3Asection%3D142"]english translation[/url][/b] reads:[list]When the king had heard this of the messengers, he took it heinously, and said that they did wrong when they assaulted the wall, whereas they ought, by undermining and other stratagems of war, to endeavor the taking of rite city, especially when they had before their eyes the example of Abimelech, the son of Gideon, who would needs take the tower in Thebes by force, and was killed by a [i][b]large stone[/b][/i] thrown at him by an old woman; and although he was a man of great prowess, he died ignominiously by the dangerous manner of his assault:
[/list]
in [i]The War of the Jews[/i], also by Josephus, petra is translated as "stone." book 5, section 272 in the [b][url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0147&query=section%3D%232804"]greek translation[/url][/b] reads:[list]skopoi oun autois epi tôn purgôn kathezomenoi proemênuon, hopote schastheiê to organon kai hê [i][b]petra[/b][/i] pheroito, têi patriôi glôssêi boôntes “ho huios erchetai.” diistanto de kath' hous êiei kai prokateklinonto, kai sunebaine phulattomenôn aprakton diekpiptein tên petran.
[/list]book 5, section 272 in the [b][url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0148&query=book%3D5%3Asection%3D272"]english translation[/url][/b] reads:[list]accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the [i][b]stone[/b][/i] came from it, and cried out aloud, in their own country language, THE STONE COMETH [b][url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0148&query=book%3D5%3Asection%3D272#fn1"]1[/url][/b] so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm.
[/list]
according to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavius_Josephus"][b]this site[/b][/url], Josephus was a first century historian and apologist, which places his works in the same century as Matthew's gospel. thus, we have the words petros and petra translated relatively the same way in works from the first century. this would appear to substantiate the claim of both catholic and protestant biblical scholars that by the time the gospels were written, these two greek words failed to have a substantial difference in meaning.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited August 12, 2005 by phatcatholic

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Aug 12 2005, 05:56 PM']i think i found the necessary proof:

in [i]Antiquities of the Jews[/i], by Flavius Josephus, petros (or, rather, a form of the word) is translated as "large stone." book 7, section 142 in the [b][url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0145&query=section%3D%232230"]greek translation[/url][/b] reads:[list]tou de basileôs akousantos para tôn angelôn tauta kai dusphorountos phaskontos hamartein autous tôi teichei prosbalontas, deon huponomois kai mêchanêmasin helein peirasthai tên polin, kai taut' echontas paradeigma ton Gedeônos huion Abimelechon, hos epei ton en Thêbais purgon helein ebouleto biai, blêtheis hupo presbutidos [i][b]petrôi[/b][/i] katepese kai andreiotatos ôn dia to duscheres tês epibolês aischrôs apethanen:

[/list]book 7, section 142 in the [b][url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0146&query=book%3D7%3Asection%3D142"]english translation[/url][/b] reads:[list]When the king had heard this of the messengers, he took it heinously, and said that they did wrong when they assaulted the wall, whereas they ought, by undermining and other stratagems of war, to endeavor the taking of rite city, especially when they had before their eyes the example of Abimelech, the son of Gideon, who would needs take the tower in Thebes by force, and was killed by a [i][b]large stone[/b][/i] thrown at him by an old woman; and although he was a man of great prowess, he died ignominiously by the dangerous manner of his assault:

[/list]
in [i]The War of the Jews[/i], also by Josephus, petra is translated as "stone." book 5, section 272 in the [b][url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0147&query=section%3D%232804"]greek translation[/url][/b] reads:[list]skopoi oun autois epi tôn purgôn kathezomenoi proemênuon, hopote schastheiê to organon kai hê [i][b]petra[/b][/i] pheroito, têi patriôi glôssêi boôntes “ho huios erchetai.” diistanto de kath' hous êiei kai prokateklinonto, kai sunebaine phulattomenôn aprakton diekpiptein tên petran.

[/list]book 5, section 272 in the [b][url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0148&query=book%3D5%3Asection%3D272"]english translation[/url][/b] reads:[list]accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the [i][b]stone[/b][/i] came from it, and cried out aloud, in their own country language, THE STONE COMETH [b][url="http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0148&query=book%3D5%3Asection%3D272#fn1"]1[/url][/b] so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm.

[/list]
according to [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavius_Josephus"][b]this site[/b][/url], Josephus was a first century historian and apologist, which places his works in the same century as Matthew's gospel. thus, we have the words petros and petra translated relatively the same way in works from the first century. this would appear to substantiate the claim of both catholic and protestant biblical scholars that by the time the gospels were written, these two greek words failed to have a substantial difference in meaning.

pax christi,
phatcatholic
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hehe I had just found this too in my research today. It works perfectly.

[phatcatholic]

God is good

Edited August 13, 2005 by phatcatholic

[goldenchild17]

Yeah I had saw all this too and was putting it together when I came here to see if you found something different. Interesting.

[phatcatholic]

that site is awesome b/c it gives the greek AND the english for each work