Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 11:38 PM' timestamp='1255235913' post='1982892'] I understand. But I thought the keys of heaven are given to you (to your Pope, Bishops and Priest) as vicar of Christ or Christ ambassador on earth? Why then it seems they do not know the way to salvation? (Because everything is mysterious and in God's hand and nothing was made known to you). [/quote] His quote was not referring to 'everything'. It refers to the fact that we cannot judge a person to be in hell. The state of a person's soul is in God's hand. The only time we can know is when we recognize someone as a saint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='mortify' date='10 October 2009 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1255229227' post='1982784'] It was an orchestrated effort that got Jesus killed. [/quote] If I am not mistaken, you are referring to pharisees who crucified Jesus on the cross according to your accepted belief. Do they acted in 'ignorance' when they did it? I(And thus, Is it not possible for them to be saved as well?) Edited October 11, 2009 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1255237053' post='1982910'] If I am not mistaken, you are referring to pharisees who crucified Jesus on the cross according to your accepted belief. Do they acted in 'ignorance' when they did it? I(And thus, Is it not possible for them to be saved as well?) [/quote] They may very well have acted in ignorance, vincible or invincible. We just don't know, and we can't say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 October 2009 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1255237420' post='1982912'] They may very well have acted in ignorance, vincible or invincible. We just don't know, and we can't say. [/quote] Suppose there is a pharisee who is morally upright and seeking God with all zealousness in his heart, but because of his ignorance in whatever manner, he let Jesus died on the cross. Do you think it is possible for him to be saved if he(the pharisee) died without accepting Jesus as the Christ? Can you please explain further what do you mean by 'invicible ignorance' if the above example is not yet qualified to such title? Edited October 11, 2009 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 11:42 PM' timestamp='1255236145' post='1982895'] His quote was not referring to 'everything'. It refers to the fact that we cannot judge a person to be in hell. The state of a person's soul is in God's hand. The only time we can know is when we recognize someone as a saint. [/quote] I used the word ‘everything’ since I am referring to the way of salvation which is ‘everything’ about Christ. And if your Pope, Bishop and Priest are true disciples of Jesus Christ as they honestly proclaim and faithfully believe in their heart - knowing Christ is the same as knowing the mystery of God since Christ is the mystery of God. In short, knowing Him is the same as knowing the mystery of God. And if it was truly revealed to them by God, what is that God’s mystery they are talking about in relation to the assurance of salvation offered by God to all men? Is it really God’s mystery or they just said those words because, the way of salvation is still hidden from them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='reyb' date='11 October 2009 - 12:58 AM' timestamp='1255240690' post='1982946'] Suppose there is a pharisee who is morally upright and seeking God with all zealousness in his heart, but because of his ignorance in whatever manner, he let Jesus died on the cross. Do you think it is possible for him to be saved if he(the pharisee) died without accepting Jesus as the Christ? Can you please explain further what do you mean by 'invicible ignorance' if the above example is not yet qualified to such title? [/quote] [quote]So far as fixing human responsibility, the most important division of ignorance is that designated by the terms invincible and vincible. Ignorance is said to be invincible when a person is unable to rid himself of it notwithstanding the employment of moral diligence, that is, such as under the circumstances is, morally speaking, possible and obligatory. This manifestly includes the states of inadvertence, forgetfulness, etc. Such ignorance is obviously involuntary and therefore not imputable. On the other hand, ignorance is termed vincible if it can be dispelled by the use of "moral diligence". This certainly does not mean all possible effort; otherwise, as Ballerini naively says, we should have to have recourse to the pope in every instance. We may say, however, that the diligence requisite must be commensurate with the importance of the affair in hand, and with the capacity of the agent, in a word such as a really sensible and prudent person would use under the circumstances. Furthermore, it must be remembered that the obligation mentioned above is to be interpreted strictly and exclusively as the duty incumbent on a man to do something, the precise object of which is the acquisition of the needed knowledge. In other words the mere fact that one is bound by some extrinsic title to do something the performance of which would have actually, though not necessarily, given the required information, is negligible. When ignorance is deliberately aimed at and fostered, it is said to be affected, not because it is pretended, but rather because it is sought for by the agent so that he may not have to relinquish his purpose. Ignorance which practically no effort is made to dispel is termed crass or supine.[/quote] If he died not accepting Jesus, but did his very best in searching for God and for Truth, he could have been unknowingly acting in accordance with God's will. If he was truly invincibly ignorant, then that means that if the Truth had been presented to him, he would have accepted it and confessed that Jesus is Lord. There's no way to know if the Truth actually was presented to him or not. [quote name='reyb' date='11 October 2009 - 01:06 AM' timestamp='1255241204' post='1982952'] I used the word ‘everything’ since I am referring to the way of salvation which is ‘everything’ about Christ. And if your Pope, Bishop and Priest are true disciples of Jesus Christ as they honestly proclaim and faithfully believe in their heart - knowing Christ is the same as knowing the mystery of God since Christ is the mystery of God. In short, knowing Him is the same as knowing the mystery of God. And if it was truly revealed to them by God, what is that God’s mystery they are talking about in relation to the assurance of salvation offered by God to all men? Is it really God’s mystery or they just said those words because, the way of salvation is still hidden from them? [/quote] I'm not sure what you're saying. You'll have to say it differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 October 2009 - 02:28 AM' timestamp='1255246082' post='1982986'] If he died not accepting Jesus, but did his very best in searching for God and for Truth, he could have been unknowingly acting in accordance with God's will. [/quote] How can he seek for more if the day is already gone? How can anyone will say 'Now, I can see clearly' and at the same time will say 'But, 'I do not know how it happens to me'? [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 October 2009 - 02:28 AM' timestamp='1255246082' post='1982986'] If he was truly invincibly ignorant, then that means that if the Truth had been presented to him, he would have accepted it and confessed that Jesus is Lord. There's no way to know if the Truth actually was presented to him or not. [/quote] How can a man who is 'invincibly ignorant' will ever understand and confessed the Truth considering the definition of ignorant in your previous post? [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 October 2009 - 02:28 AM' timestamp='1255246082' post='1982986'] I'm not sure what you're saying. You'll have to say it differently. [/quote] ....maybe because....it is another mystery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='reyb' date='11 October 2009 - 05:07 AM' timestamp='1255255675' post='1983035'] How can he seek for more if the day is already gone? How can anyone will say 'Now, I can see clearly' and at the same time will say 'But, 'I do not know how it happens to me'? How can a man who is 'invincibly ignorant' will ever understand and confessed the Truth considering the definition of ignorant in your previous post? ....maybe because....it is another mystery. [/quote] I'm sorry, you've completely lost me now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark of the Cross Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='reyb' date='11 October 2009 - 01:08 PM' timestamp='1255226904' post='1982759'] So it is because of their 'ignorance' - they are now exonerated. [/quote] (Mt 18:1-5.10.12-14): At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked him, «Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?». Then Jesus called a little child, set the child in the midst of the disciples, and said, «I assure you that unless you change and become like little children, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes lowly like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and whoever receives such a child in my name receives me. This pretty much says that ignorance is greater than knowledge. A better word may be innocence. Knowledge got us kicked out of heaven. Ignorance or innocence is the only way back. [quote name='Resurrexi' date='11 October 2009 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1255232266' post='1982827'] The collect for the Mass of Holy Thursday implies that Judas is in hell... [/quote] Surely not because of his betrayal of Jesus. His post actions says that he was extremely remorseful. [quote name='reyb' date='11 October 2009 - 03:57 PM' timestamp='1255237053' post='1982910'] If I am not mistaken, you are referring to pharisees who crucified Jesus on the cross according to your accepted belief. Do they acted in' ignorance' when they did it? I(And thus, Is it not possible for them to be saved as well?) [/quote] They acted with jealousy and vengeance? [quote name='reyb' date='11 October 2009 - 04:58 PM' timestamp='1255240690' post='1982946'] Suppose there is a pharisee who is morally upright and seeking God with all zealousness in his heart, but because of his ignorance in whatever manner, he let Jesus died on the cross. Do you think it is possible for him to be saved if he(the pharisee) died without accepting Jesus as the Christ? [/quote] Contradiction here! Such a Pharisee should see Jesus as a normal man claiming to be what he claimed to be but still should have compassion and come to his defence. You can accidentally kill someone but you cannot innocently murder someone. [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='12 October 2009 - 04:08 AM' timestamp='1255280896' post='1983124'] I'm sorry, you've completely lost me now. [/quote] Never mind Nihil, maybe this will get you to heaven Edited October 11, 2009 by Mark of the Cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='reyb' date='11 October 2009 - 12:57 AM' timestamp='1255237053' post='1982910'] If I am not mistaken, you are referring to pharisees who crucified Jesus on the cross according to your accepted belief. Do they acted in 'ignorance' when they did it? I(And thus, Is it not possible for them to be saved as well?) [/quote] If they repented it's possible for them to have been saved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 October 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1255296967' post='1983253'] Never mind Nihil, maybe this will get you to heaven [/quote] Ahh, valid point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 [quote] If I am not mistaken, you are referring to pharisees who crucified Jesus on the cross according to your accepted belief. Do they acted in 'ignorance' when they did it? I(And thus, Is it not possible for them to be saved as well?) [/quote] [quote name='mortify' date='11 October 2009 - 05:18 PM' timestamp='1255299531' post='1983281'] If they repented it's possible for them to have been saved. [/quote] ...and if they not. It is impossible for them to be saved, Isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 [quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 October 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1255296967' post='1983253'] (Mt 18:1-5.10.12-14): At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked him, «Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?». Then Jesus called a little child, set the child in the midst of the disciples, and said, «I assure you that unless you change and become like little children, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Whoever becomes lowly like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven, and whoever receives such a child in my name receives me. [/quote] The above verse is about 'born again' . Of course, it can be interpreted or understood - as a renewed and innocent person or a man without his own talent but nonetheless obedient as a Child. But this is not the kind of people with 'invincible ignorant' as mentioned by your (Catholic Church) tradition because obviously these 'nons' (Not Catholic but morally upright individual who knows nothing about your Christ and your Church) cannot come near to your Jesus or has any intention of doing it or has the capacity to do it because he is 'invincibly ignorant'. While in the above verse, it seems, he is 'near' to Jesus that is why He called him. [quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 October 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1255296967' post='1983253'] This pretty much says that ignorance is greater than knowledge. A better word may be innocence. Knowledge got us kicked out of heaven. Ignorance or innocence is the only way back. [/quote] Innocence and ignorance have different meaning and I do not know why Catholic Church called these 'nons' invincible ignorant and not innocent. Maybe your tradition do not want them to be totally free from sin but still, your Church suggest 'they are saved'. [quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 October 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1255296967' post='1983253'] Surely not because of his betrayal of Jesus. His post actions says that he was extremely remorseful. [/quote] So, where is Judas now? Is he in heaven or in hell? I am hoping that your tradition can tell us about him since Catholic Church has the apostolic teaching since the beginning of your Christ and Apostle Peter. [quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 October 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1255296967' post='1983253'] They acted with jealousy and vengeance? [/quote] It is better if they really acted out of Jealousy and vengeance because, it means, they know that Jesus is the Christ. [quote name='Mark of the Cross' date='11 October 2009 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1255296967' post='1983253'] Contradiction here! Such a Pharisee should see Jesus as a normal man claiming to be what he claimed to be but still should have compassion and come to his defence. You can accidentally kill someone but you cannot innocently murder someone. [/quote] Where is that contradiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Reyb, you just need to stop. Seriously. Stop for a second. I'm going to use caps now. Everybody hates caps, but I have to do it. WE CANNOT JUDGE THE STATE OF A PERSON'S SOUL. We can [u]never[/u] determine whether ignorance is vincible or not. N E V E R. I quoted the Catechism above. I'm starting to think you never read it. That would be a real shame, because it answers EVERYTHING you're bringing up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='11 October 2009 - 10:17 PM' timestamp='1255317421' post='1983619'] Reyb, you just need to stop. Seriously. Stop for a second. I'm going to use caps now. Everybody hates caps, but I have to do it. WE CANNOT JUDGE THE STATE OF A PERSON'S SOUL. We can [u]never[/u] determine whether ignorance is vincible or not. N E V E R. I quoted the Catechism above. I'm starting to think you never read it. That would be a real shame, because it answers EVERYTHING you're bringing up. [/quote] You can be sure, I read your Catechism and everything you posted here. As I have said, I understand what you are saying. There is no problem if you will say, 'we cannot judge the state of a person soul'. There is no problem either if you cannot determine whether these 'nons' or anybody else has vincible of whatever kind of ignorance they have. But to claim that the Roman Catholic Church has the Spirit of Christ and therefore knows the way of salvation meaning 'who has the mind of the lord' (As Apostle Paul said in his letter). - that is where the problem occur. You must know it if you really have the Spirit of Christ otherwise everything you claim is nothing but lies pretending to be true because of faith. As I have previously said (in my other topic), to a believer, everything he believes, is 'truth' to himself and therefore even lies hidden in mysteries, seems to be true because of faith. But faith has no power to change a lie to become true. And in the end, when everything is opened and laid bare -it will be too late since the day of rest has come but you are still working and it will be forever. Today, if you are in my shoes and I am in your place, I wish you will do for me what I am doing now. Because, in the end I will realize that you love me as yourself. Your Brother in Christ, reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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