mortify Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 10:08 PM' timestamp='1255226904' post='1982759'] So it is because of their 'ignorance' - they are now exonerated. [/quote] No one is saying being ignorant of the Gospel or the Church is a one way ticket to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) Edit: nevermind Edited October 11, 2009 by mortify Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='mortify' date='10 October 2009 - 09:48 PM' timestamp='1255229307' post='1982787'] No one is saying being ignorant of the Gospel or the Church is a one way ticket to heaven. [/quote] I hope you are with us (in this conversation). Please see previous post of nihil and HisChildForever regarding Catholic Church's stand on morally upright persons but not called 'Catholic' because of 'invincible ignorance'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote]"Outside the Church there is no salvation" 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. 847 [b]This affirmation [u]is not[/u] aimed at those who, [u]through no fault of their own[/u], do not know Christ and his Church[/b]: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless [b]seek God with a sincere heart,[/b] and, moved by grace, [b]try in their actions to do his will as they know it [/b]through the dictates of their conscience - [b]those too may achieve eternal salvation[/b]. 848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[/quote] Does that make my position clearer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1255230046' post='1982794'] Does that make my position clearer? [/quote] Do you mean in paragraph 847, Protestants are exluded? (Or it is also aimed to them regarding the affirmation that 'Outside the Church There is No Salvation'.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 10:32 PM' timestamp='1255231929' post='1982818'] Do you mean in paragraph 847, Protestants are exluded? (Or it is also aimed to them regarding the affirmation that 'Outside the Church There is No Salvation'.) [/quote] There's nothing alluding to Protestantism in that paragraph. It's talking about people who don't know Christ and His Church, which includes Protestants, who do not know the fullness of Truth. Edited October 11, 2009 by Nihil Obstat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1255227870' post='1982774'] That's why we will never say that a soul is in hell. [/quote] The collect for the Mass of Holy Thursday implies that Judas is in hell... "O God, from Whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion, our Lord Jesus Christ gave to each a retribution according to his merits, so having taken away our old sins, He may bestow upon us the grace of His Resurrection. Who with Thee liveth and reigneth..." (Collect of the Mass of the Lord's Supper) Edited October 11, 2009 by Resurrexi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 09:48 PM' timestamp='1255229301' post='1982786'] Can't consider it invincible, and you can't not consider it invincible. You simply can't say. Who knows if they were raised in an environment in which the Catholic Church was constantly demonized and mocked? Or maybe they've just never had anyone to explain what we truly believe to them. [/quote] And why not? Is it not those who do not accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church are called 'ignorant of the truth' (according to your Church)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='10 October 2009 - 10:37 PM' timestamp='1255232266' post='1982827'] The collect for the Mass of Holy Thursday implies that Judas is in hell... "O God, from Whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession: grant unto us the full fruit of Thy clemency; that even as in His Passion, our Lord Jesus Christ gave to each a retribution according to his merits, so having taken away our old sins, He may bestow upon us the grace of His Resurrection. Who with Thee liveth and reigneth..." (Collect of the Mass of the Lord's Supper) [/quote] It's certainly implied. [quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 10:46 PM' timestamp='1255232816' post='1982839'] And why not? Is it not those who do not accept the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church are called 'ignorant of the truth' (according to your Church)? [/quote] All I said is that you can consider it neither vincible nor invincible. We're forbidden from making that judgement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 10:34 PM' timestamp='1255232066' post='1982821'] There's nothing alluding to Protestantism in that paragraph. It's talking about people who don't know Christ and His Church, which includes Protestants, who do not know the fullness of Truth. [/quote] That is precisely my point. Is it not in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church they (protestants) are suffering from 'invincible ignorance'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 11:01 PM' timestamp='1255233708' post='1982853'] That is precisely my point. Is it not in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church they (protestants) are suffering from 'invincible ignorance'? [/quote] Ignorance? Probably yes. Invincible? Once again, we can never determine that. Literally it is impossible for Man. That's something only God and the person in question knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1255228699' post='1982779'] Suppose a protestant will say 'Roman Catholic Church is not the true Church Of Christ and her Pope, Bishops and Priests are not true disciple of Christ' - can you consider him with invincible ignorance? [/quote] Luckily it's not something we have to worry about. God handles that end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 11:03 PM' timestamp='1255233790' post='1982856'] Ignorance? Probably yes. Invincible? Once again, we can never determine that. Literally it is impossible for Man. That's something only God and the person in question knows. [/quote] ... That is why Pope John Paul said in his letter 'It is the problem of the salvation of those who do not visibly belong to the Church. We have not been given the possibility to discern the mystery of God's action in minds and hearts, in order to assess......'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 11:12 PM' timestamp='1255234376' post='1982870'] ... That is why Pope John Paul said in his letter 'It is the problem of the salvation of those who do not visibly belong to the Church. We have not been given the possibility to discern the mystery of God's action in minds and hearts, in order to assess......'? [/quote] Yes, definitely "We have not been given the possibility to discern the mystery of God's action in minds and hearts." Translation: we don't know, and we can't know, and it's not for us to know, ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted October 11, 2009 Share Posted October 11, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 11:14 PM' timestamp='1255234496' post='1982873'] Yes, definitely "We have not been given the possibility to discern the mystery of God's action in minds and hearts." Translation: we don't know, and we can't know, and it's not for us to know, ever. [/quote] I understand. But I thought the keys of heaven are given to you (to your Pope, Bishops and Priest) as vicar of Christ or Christ ambassador on earth? Why then it seems they do not know the way to salvation? (Because everything is mysterious and in God's hand and nothing was made known to you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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