No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church

[reyb]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1255199589' post='1982464']
The Catechism explains that some individuals are born into a society where Christ is not known. If that individual lives a good life, following his or her God-given conscience, and dies before hearing the Gospel, that individual can experience eternal life. Their ignorance of Christ was through no fault of their own.
[/quote]

Granted. Actually it is discuss in the letter of Pope John Paul II. But still the question at hand never solve. In what way they may be saved if they will reject Christ. Or who will be their saviour if they will reject Christ.

Edited October 10, 2009 by reyb

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1255208905' post='1982559']
Granted. But still the question at hand never solve. In what way they may be saved if they will reject Christ.
[/quote]
You cannot in full knowledge and consent reject Christ and hope to share in the salvation that He made possible.
Note: Full knowledge and consent.

[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 02:13 PM' timestamp='1255198437' post='1982449']
Yes, I heard it but (as I have said), How come these ‘Catholics But Not Catholics’ will be saved if they will reject - no matter how unintentional it maybe because of their ignorance or whatever - the teaching of the Roman Catholics Church assuming Pope, Bishops, and Priest are true disciples of Jesus of Christ in relation to John 15:20-25?[/quote]

How can they reject what they are ignorant of?

[reyb]

[quote name='mortify' date='10 October 2009 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1255214061' post='1982611']
How can they reject what they are ignorant of?
[/quote]

Of course, You have a point and since you are looking for Justice and Righteousness in saying it. Do you know, that 'ignorance' is the reason why the Lord of Glory was crucified? (see 1 Cor 2:8). Now, you are telling me that this the same 'ignorance' exonerated them. How can it be possible?

Edited October 11, 2009 by reyb

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1255222430' post='1982677']
Of course, You have a point and since you are looking for Justice and Righteousness in saying it. Do you know, that 'ignorance' is the reason why the Lord of Glory was crucified? (see 1 Cor 2:8). Now, you are telling me that this the same 'ignorance' exonerated them. How can it be possible?
[/quote]
In courts of law, ignorance doesn't excuse you, but in terms of morals, it's much different. If you do something objectively wrong, truly not knowing that it's wrong, then how could you be held accountable?

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 10:31 AM' timestamp='1255185109' post='1982342']
[url="http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19950531en.html"]Pope John Paul II said it in his letter.[/url]
Please read his entire letter and tell me if these 'nons' are Catholics or not.
[/quote]In ethical and effective communication, one should attempt to be “other-oriented” rather than “self-oriented” in communication. I personally feel as if you are giving some kind of unsupportable innuendo to what my post meant, which the only real comment you made in reply was regarding the term “Catholic”. I thus gave what I meant by being a “Catholic” and even suggested more objective terms be used in order to avoid confusion.

You on the other hand continue to make this sort of innuendo about my comment, no real objection to its content except perhaps you don’t understand it or that it’s not as “absolute” as you would like it to be. But because you can’t quite substantiate that, you make the unfounded innuendo and somehow want to suggest that this is not in line with the Church’s doctrine concerning salvation.

If you want to directly address what I wrote and rebuttal it, feel extremely welcome, and I do encourage it. But if the best we are going to get at is innuendo and indirect subtleties, then I think its best to just state your personal opinion about the matter and move on, because it’s not very “provable” what you’re going on right now.

Your only objection thus far seems to be, one does not have to be a Catholic in life, which I identified with someone who is knowingly and intentionally a Catholic. And it seems you agree; that someone does not have to knowingly and intentionally be a Catholic in life in order to dispose themselves for salvation. Citing Pope John Paul II which he discusses this very idea.

So either you’re splitting hairs with me or you’re not saying what you really think. So when you are ready to directly address what I wrote and directly show some kind of evidence that repudiates what I wrote, no. You haven’t done anything except agree with me. Which, I don’t think that you think you agree with me.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1255197404' post='1982439']
[b]It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.[/b] - Pope Pius IX

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm[/quote][quote name='HisChildForever' date='10 October 2009 - 02:33 PM' timestamp='1255199589' post='1982464']
The Catechism explains that some individuals are born into a society where Christ is not known. If that individual lives a good life, following his or her God-given conscience, and dies before hearing the Gospel, that individual can experience eternal life. Their ignorance of Christ was through no fault of their own.[/quote]Thank you for the quote and comments.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='10 October 2009 - 08:43 PM' timestamp='1255225400' post='1982723']
In ethical and effective communication, one should attempt to be “other-oriented” rather than “self-oriented” in communication. I personally feel as if you are giving some kind of unsupportable innuendo to what my post meant, which the only real comment you made in reply was regarding the term “Catholic”. I thus gave what I meant by being a “Catholic” and even suggested more objective terms be used in order to avoid confusion.

You on the other hand continue to make this sort of innuendo about my comment, no real objection to its content except perhaps you don’t understand it or that it’s not as “absolute” as you would like it to be. But because you can’t quite substantiate that, you make the unfounded innuendo and somehow want to suggest that this is not in line with the Church’s doctrine concerning salvation.

If you want to directly address what I wrote and rebuttal it, feel extremely welcome, and I do encourage it. But if the best we are going to get at is innuendo and indirect subtleties, then I think its best to just state your personal opinion about the matter and move on, because it’s not very “provable” what you’re going on right now.

Your only objection thus far seems to be, one does not have to be a Catholic in life, which I identified with someone who is knowingly and intentionally a Catholic. And it seems you agree; that someone does not have to knowingly and intentionally be a Catholic in life in order to dispose themselves for salvation. Citing Pope John Paul II which he discusses this very idea.

So either you’re splitting hairs with me or you’re not saying what you really think. So when you are ready to directly address what I wrote and directly show some kind of evidence that repudiates what I wrote, no. You haven’t done anything except agree with me. Which, I don’t think that you think you agree with me.
[/quote]

Actually, I do not contest your comment regarding 'not Catholic in life' but rather I go along with the conversation. I just make clarification using Pope John Paul's letter regarding this issue that these 'nons' are members of the Roman Catholic Church and therefore 'Catholics' too.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 09:53 PM' timestamp='1255226034' post='1982739']
Actually, I do not contest your comment regarding 'not Catholic in life' but rather I go along with the conversation. I just make clarification using Pope John Paul's letter regarding this issue that these 'nons' are members of the Roman Catholic Church and therefore 'Catholics' too.
[/quote]If you could get a non-Catholic to admit that their Catholic, but that they don’t know it, then feel all the more welcome...

But it seems like your splitting hairs, John Paul II seemed to be describing that persons can be [mystically/spirtually (somehow/someway)] attached to the Church while not being a Catholic. I don't think this makes them a Catholic in how I used the term. But when you say something IS while it IS NOT, it is a contradiction. It's an oxymoron, A Non-Catholic that is a Catholic.

But thank you for your prompt and brief reply.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Mr.CatholicCat

[reyb]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 08:36 PM' timestamp='1255225015' post='1982719']
In courts of law, ignorance doesn't excuse you, but in terms of morals, it's much different. If you do something objectively wrong, truly not knowing that it's wrong, then how could you be held accountable?
[/quote]

So it is because of their 'ignorance' - they are now exonerated.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 09:08 PM' timestamp='1255226904' post='1982759']
So it is because of their 'ignorance' - they are now exonerated.
[/quote]
If it was invincible ignorance, then in a word, yes.
Invincible ignorance can never be known though. That's why we will never say that a soul is in hell. We will never know if their ignorance was invincible or not.

[reyb]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' date='10 October 2009 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1255226862' post='1982757']
If you could get a non-Catholic to admit that their Catholic, but that they don’t know it, then feel all the more welcome...

But it seems like your splitting hairs, John Paul II seemed to be describing that persons can be [mystically/spirtually (somehow/someway)] attached to the Church while not being a Catholic. I don't think this makes them a Catholic in how I used the term. But when you say something IS while it IS NOT, it is a contradiction. It's an oxymoron, A Non-Catholic that is a Catholic.

But thank you for your prompt and brief reply.
[/quote]

If I will follow your thought in relation to Pope John Paul's letter, it seems these nons are member of the Roman Catholic Church but they are not Catholics. (And take note: they are saved according to Catholic Church's Cathecism). I am afraid many protestants will be happy to hear it.

Anyway, let us go back to our discussion

[reyb]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='10 October 2009 - 09:24 PM' timestamp='1255227870' post='1982774']
If it was invincible ignorance, then in a word, yes.
Invincible ignorance can never be known though. That's why we will never say that a soul is in hell. We will never know if their ignorance was invincible or not.
[/quote]

Suppose a protestant will say 'Roman Catholic Church is not the true Church Of Christ and her Pope, Bishops and Priests are not true disciple of Christ' - can you consider him with invincible ignorance?

[mortify]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 08:53 PM' timestamp='1255222430' post='1982677']
Of course, You have a point and since you are looking for Justice and Righteousness in saying it. Do you know, that 'ignorance' is the reason why the Lord of Glory was crucified? (see 1 Cor 2:8). Now, you are telling me that this the same 'ignorance' exonerated them. How can it be possible?
[/quote]

It was an orchestrated effort that got Jesus killed.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='reyb' date='10 October 2009 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1255228699' post='1982779']
Suppose a protestant will say 'Roman Catholic Church is not the true Church Of Christ and her Pope, Bishops and Priests are not true disciple of Christ' - can you consider him with invincible ignorance?
[/quote]
Can't consider it invincible, and you can't not consider it invincible. You simply can't say.
Who knows if they were raised in an environment in which the Catholic Church was constantly demonized and mocked? Or maybe they've just never had anyone to explain what we truly believe to them.