No Salvation Outside of the Catholic Church

[JP2Iloveyou]

I didn't read this entire thread. There seem to be some long posts, but let me offer these two cents worth. I had to explain [i]extra ecclesia nulla salus[/i] to a group of elementary school children, and I used the following analogy. Perhaps it will help.

First, we have to understand what the teaching means. It means that the only way to achieve one's salvation is by Christ, through the Church. The only way a person is permitted to enter Heaven is by the redemptive act of Christ and through his Bride, the Catholic Church.

Now, this can happen even if one is unaware of it. Suppose someone lives in a tribe of Native Americans in the Amazon rain forest in Brazil and has never heard of Christ and his Church. When that person dies, can he go to Heaven? The answer is of course, yes! However, if that person goes to Heaven, it is by Christ and through the Church. Often this doesn't make much sense, so consider the following analogy.

All human beings survive by breathing oxygen. Without oxygen, we all would die. This includes everyone from a newborn baby to an elderly person on his deathbed. Even if that newborn baby did not know that it was indeed oxygen keeping it alive, it does not change the fact that it is in fact oxygen keeping him alive. Likewise, if someone stays alive eternally, it is through the Catholic Church, even if that person doesn't know it.

Of course, if one does know the truth and one still rejects it, then that person will suffer eternal death. It is like one of us deciding to stop breathing. We know that we need oxygen, but if we refuse it of our own volition and decide to start breathing carbon dioxide instead, we will also die.

I hope this helps.

[White Knight]

So would you agree that some Protestant Demoinations have incorperated some of the Catholic Church teaching and reject the rest?


Because in a sense, some Protestants, do have the some teachings of the Church, yet there still missing the fullness of the Teaching of Doctrine in the Catholic Church.


[b]There are some things obviously that people have to believe in order to be Catholic/Christian. Obviously In One True Holy God (God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, The Holy Blessed Trinity, Sacred Scripture being the Only and Holy Word of God, The Actions and Condictions of our Lord Jesus Christ.(Jesus was Born of a Virgin); Jesus was perfect, He was sinless, He became Sin on the Cross and Died For us for our Salvation, He Rose Again on the Third Day, He Ascended On High, and Hes Soon to Come again one day to Judge the Righteous Living and Unrighteous living, The Righteous Dead, and UnRighteous dead.[/b]

Now obviously there are some teachings out there that conflict with these beliefs, such as in some cases in Some Protestant Demoinations they dont even teach or preach the message of the Gospel, They dont teach the power of the blood of Christ, They dont teach forgiveness of sins by Christ's spilt Blood, etc etc. This is one of many issues they dont teach. Alot of them Disanounce the Trinity, The Virgin Birth, The Holy Word of God (The Bible); etc This is just one of many.


Yet, there are some [b]Protestant Demoniations[/b] that are closer to the Catholic Church than other demoniations. Ones that embrace most of the Catholic Church Teachings, yet nit-pick here and there what they dont believe.


Also, God wants to save as many souls before He brings upon Judgement Day, I dont think He'd Limit the Salvation of Precious Souls on one thing. but Rather on Church. As long as you believe in the majority of the Teachings of the Catholic Church and or All of it. and Believe in CHRIST Most of all. that will grant you Salvation.


[color=blue][b]The Term Catholic means Universal so in a sense Some Protestant Demoniations are Catholic by majority of Belief, but may differ on some areas. but in a sense there still apart of The Church. [/b][/color]


From what I heard, not too long ago, from a friend. The Catholic Church has the FULL TEACHINGS the Fullness of the TRUTH. Protestants, Have a Peice of the Truth, but sometimes neglect the rest of it, and nit-pick what they believe and dont believe. but still have a peice of the Truth.


This is a very important issue, that is in the Catechism and reguires careful reading otherwise you may miss the entire message of the Article. I had to read it a few times before understanding all of it.

Edited August 3, 2005 by White Knight

[Aloysius]

we don't know if there exists anyone who is truly inculpably ignorant, and we can never assume anyone to be inculpably ignorant. even if they are ignorant of the Church and/or its necessity, it is possible that it is their fault that they are ignorant in which case that is CULPABLE ignorance and as such remains a mortal sin.

for it is a sin of grave matter to be apart from the Catholic Church. as with the traditional teaching of the Church people can only be damned by original or mortal sin and there are three conditions of mortal sin.

1. full knowledge it is wrong
2. full consent of the will
3. grave matter (already established)

so 1 consists of full knowledge. one does not have full knowledge if they do not know it is wrong through no fault of their own. if it is their fault that they do not know, they fulfill the requirement of full knowledge (culpable ignorance). and 2 means that you cannot be coerced (perhaps by the parents or community you grew up in), that you through your own fault consented your will to being outside the Church.

we accept protestant baptisms if they are done with proper intent and in the name of the Blessed Trinity, meaning all who are baptized have been opened to the Church's Treasury of Grace (the only thing on earth with the power to save). so long as those people do not have mortal sin when they die they will not be damned (whether they are SAVED depends on if they had faith through which grace acted through and then if they are not perfect they will first need purification). as for the unbaptized, above people have already explained to you the teachings of baptism of desire and blood which stem from the early Church Fathers and Trent and Aquinas and traditional teaching. However, I would like to reiterate we do not know if this ever occurs at all. It is a possibility.

[son_of_angels]

one should however understand the problem of number 2, God DOES expect us to die for the faith if it is necessary, seeing as we must already be dead to the world ("the servant is not greater than his master"). Therefore coercion of the will and coercion of the body should perhaps be separated. This makes the second option extremely limited.
Here is another issue, If a person knows that the Catholic Church thinks something is wrong, yet does not himself know that it is wrong, because he willfully rejects Magisterial teaching on Holy Scripture, that would be his will against the Church's will. This would also limit the number of people to whom the first rule would apply.

Note that these are only my opinions, and I daresay I am not infallible.

[Aloysius]

so you are saying that by conscience the person does not assent to the teaching of the Church, i.e. he doesn't believe it to be wrong.

to that I answer with Aquinas: a conscience binds even when in error, but a faulty conscience does not necessarily excuse. so if you know the Church thinks it is wrong but your conscience doesn't tell you it is wrong, it becomes a matter of whether it is your fault your conscience doesn't think it is wrong. if it is not your fault, you do not meet requirement 1 of mortal sin. if it is your fault, even though you don't really know by your conscience, it is your fault you don't know and as such you SHOULD have full knowledge so you meet criteria 1 for mortal sin.

[Quietfire]

Dairy,
Check this out.
[url="http://mafg.home.isp-direct.com/cques07.htm"]It may explain some things.[/url]

This site in general is good. There are a lot of questions answered there.

[url="http://mafg.home.isp-direct.com/cques09.htm"]This[/url] may be in reference to this topic, but the first link is important also, since I think it helps explain alot as well.

Pax

[Quietfire]

[url="http://mafg.home.isp-direct.com/cquescnt.htm"]This is the entire site. [/url]
Have a ball chica!

[infinitelord1]

dairygirl,

this has already been proven that most of the people in the catholic church do believe their is no salvation for those outside of it. It sickens me to me to see the church that is "the truth" and see its people believe in this. I consider myself to be catholic if anything but jesus says in the bibile that savation was through himself. Other churches realize that too. I suppose maybe catholics dont necassarily believe they are going to hell but they certainly believe they arent making it to heaven. Maybe they believe they will go to purgatory (something i have little reasonn to believe in) but . I must note however that i think it is more reasonable to bel9ieve in purgatory than the protestant "rapture". anyways, it all boils down to the meaning of salvation to a catholic..........thje protestant views of salvation are similar yet not exact to the catholic idea of salvation. this is why they believe that others wont make it. It doesnt necassarily mean they will go to hell though (to a catholic).

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 4 2005, 07:16 PM']dairygirl,

this has already been proven that most of the people in the catholic church do believe their is no salvation for those outside of it. It sickens me to me to see the church that is "the truth" and see its people believe in this. I consider myself to be catholic if anything but jesus says in the bibile that savation was through himself. Other churches realize that too. I suppose maybe catholics dont necassarily believe they are going to hell but they certainly believe they arent making it to heaven. Maybe they  believe they will go to purgatory (something i have little reasonn to believe in) but . I must note however that i think it is more reasonable to bel9ieve in purgatory than the protestant "rapture". anyways, it all boils down to the meaning of salvation to a catholic..........thje protestant views of salvation are similar yet not exact to the catholic idea of salvation. this is why they believe that others wont make it. It doesnt necassarily mean they will go to hell though (to a catholic).
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One Lord, One Faith. Jesus created one Fatih, not 3,000. The Catholic Church is the fullness of the Faith that Jesus gave us. We dont achieve salvation by the Church, Jesus is our Salvation. But the Church leads us to Jesus, and gives us what we need to follow Jesus. He didnt found it just so it could sit here and do nothing.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='infinitelord1' date='Aug 4 2005, 08:16 PM']dairygirl,

this has already been proven that most of the people in the catholic church do believe their is no salvation for those outside of it.
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Where did you get that? Didn't you read what I posted from the Catechism? I've spent a year off and on writing a refutation of Feeneyism and I posted the link above. Check it out (updated today):
[url="http://www.catholicfiles.com/againstfeeneyism.html"]http://www.catholicfiles.com/againstfeeneyism.html[/url]

Edited August 5, 2005 by thedude

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='thedude' date='Aug 4 2005, 07:28 PM']Where did you get that?  Didn't you read what I posted from the Catechism?  I've spent a year off and on writing a refutation of Feeneyism and I posted the link above.  Check it out (updated today):
[url="http://www.catholicfiles.com/againstfeeneyism.html"]http://www.catholicfiles.com/againstfeeneyism.html[/url]
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we did a poll here on phatmass

[Aloysius]

only within the Catholic Church resides the necessary salvitic grace. Without access to the Church's treasury of grace, there is no path to heaven. Baptism gives you access. Original and Mortal Sin cut you off from that access.

Those who understand the teaching of the Church understand that we do not know if anyone outside of the visible Catholic Church is saved. We know certain possibilities exist but we do not assume them, because we have a divine duty to bring them to the only place we know for sure they can find the grace necessary for salvation.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

"Outsiders" that are saved are saved through the Church who's head is Christ. Nobody can enter heaven without the sacrifice of Christ. So properly understood, no one - no matter what - is saved outside the Church.

Edited August 5, 2005 by thedude

[Aloysius]

I qualified my "outside" with "[i]visible[/i] Church" in relation to the Church. so we are agreed.

[dairygirl4u2c]

ok so why's it so hard to find the writings of the popes who said the controversial stuff? or the bishops of those days. i want to figure out what was believed.

it seems like whenever i get going on a trail, the writings of this pope or those times, or those places are conventiently missing. this just reinforces my revisionist theory of the Catholic Church, fixin things to look right after the fact. a cop out on my part i know. but seriously. see ? above.

but on the side of the Catholic Church, i did have one realization as far as this thread goes. if the Catholic Church did always teach that you could be saved by desire and ignorance, but taught the way it did as this thread indicates, i understand how all the old ppl might think that only catholics can be saved. i mean, looking at those writings, and not focusing much on the desire part, ad consdierig how simple minded people are, it's not that far fetched to think that people are gonna be too extreme and think you can only be saved by being a cathlic, even if that's not completely true. i do wonder tho, why all hte sedadvanticsts and such ALL believe that.. and wonder why they persist in their beliefs...
maybe that's a case where the bishops of the world and the pope, but not at the same time as to not affect the ordinary magisterium.. led ppl astray. see, it's so easy to change things with the ordinary magisterium that no one knows what it is until after the fact... (like i'd be willing to bet that the Catholic Church ordinary magist taught geocentrism, not just bc it's the best science had and ppl believed it, but bc the Catholic Church taught it as scriptural and therefore faith/value based.. but anyway.. focused on this thread!)

Edited August 8, 2005 by dairygirl4u2c