a thought on "liberal" catholics...

[prose]

Okay, so I am sure everyone knows which thread is sparking this one, but I have a different take on the thing I guess. If you read this whole thread, my thoughts really are expressed, I swear.

Now, I was thinking about the "liberal"/"conservative"/"traditional"/ etc. etc.etc. thing. and I started thinking about which "camp" I would take if I had to choose.

And I arrived at the conclusion if I HAD to choose a "camp" by definitions alone, I would say I am predominantly conservative Catholic.

Which made me think "Why?" What makes me "choose" that camp? Why would I consider myself conservative, and what makes one conservative anyways?

Which brought me to thinking that probably because I am comfortable with the Church's teachings and following them. I don't really debate anything b/c I agree with a lot of the teachings.

Which brought me to thinking about what is a Liberal Catholic?? I know a lot of people claim that it is someone who is a "cafeteria" catholic. So Can one be a Liberal Catholic (per se), and not be a cafeteria catholic? I thought and thought about this, and I think the answer is yes. I think you can have faith in the Church's teachings, follow them faithfully, and yet still be working towards evolution within the Church. I dare say, maybe some people are called to this type of belief (not myself, but maybe some are). Afterall, isn't the Catholic Church a living thing? Doesn't it grow and mature with time. No, it's teachings don't change, but some things do. And maybe it is the "liberal" catholics that help bring about this maturation.

So, I started to rethink my position. Am I truly a "conservative" Catholic? and again, I think I am. But when I saw all of this in this light, I sure am able to respect more the positions of many "liberal" Catholics that I previously thought of as mostly cafeteria catholics.

I know someone had said that there are no conservative or liberal catholics, only obedient ones, but I dare say after much thought, I beg to differ. We can ALL be obedient Catholics and still develop out faiths in different ways can't we? Can't we all follow teachings and some be more traditional than others? I think that our Faith is so full and complete that it allows for this.

Just some thoughts. I would love some feedback.

[Guest Eremite]

The problem with the labels "liberal" and "conservative" is that they impose political terms on the Catholic faith.

GK Chesterton, for example, was an unabashed "liberal". This had nothing at all to do with his Catholic faith. It had everything to do with his political views.

Difficulty with belief is not a sin, anymore than temptation is. When this difficulty is embraced, however, there is a problem. We must manifest our obedience to the teaching of the Church, even if we cannot fully understand it.

While a teaching of the Church can develop and be more fully appreciated, that does not give us the liberty to impose our opinions over that of the Church.

Certain teachings, such as those which so-called "liberal Catholics" are fond of rejecting, cannot and will not change. These include, but are not limited to, the Church's sexual ethic, her absolute opposition to abortion, the reservation of the priesthood to men alone, etc.

It should be noted that a so-called "conservative" Catholic can also be wishy washy with certain teachings of the Church. Ideology comes in all shapes and sizes.

We are called to be orthodox, to have a correct faith in all ways, to put our pride aside and receive instruction from our mother, the Church.

John Cardinal Henry Newman, writing in the context of conversion, has some beautiful thoughts on what it means to be Catholic:

[quote]A convert comes to learn, and not to pick and choose. He comes in simplicity and confidence, and it does not occur to him to weigh and measure every proceeding, every practice which he meets with among those whom he has joined. He comes to Catholicism as to a living system, with a living teaching, and not to a mere collection of decrees and canons, which by themselves are of course but the framework, not the body and substance of the Church. And this is a truth which concerns, which binds, those also who never knew any other religion, not only the convert. By the Catholic system, I mean that rule of life, and those practices of devotion, for which we shall look in vain in the Creed of Pope Pius. The convert comes, not only to believe the Church, but also to trust and obey her priests, and to conform himself in charity to her people. It would never do for him to resolve that he never would say a Hail Mary, never avail himself of an indulgence, never kiss a crucifix, never accept the Lent dispensations, never mention a venial sin in confession. All this would not only be unreal, but would be dangerous, too, as arguing a wrong state of mind, which could not look to receive the divine blessing. Moreover, he comes to the ceremonial, and the moral theology, and the ecclesiastical regulations, which he finds on the spot where his lot is cast. And again, as regards matters of politics, of education, of general expedience, of taste, he does not criticize or controvert. And thus surrendering himself to the influences of his new religion, and not risking the loss of revealed truth altogether by attempting by a private rule to discriminate every moment its substance from its accidents, he is gradually so indoctrinated in Catholicism, as at length to have a right to speak as well as to hear. [/quote]

[MC Just]

Well actually, a lot of the Chruch in america is liberal. Many bishops and Priests are. They are trying to make Catholicism "politically correct".

Even in the 1800's, Liberal catholics were dissenters, they labeled the Orthodox Roman Catholics "ultramontanists".

I cant stand how some people try to justify liberalism. Like "its ok to be a little liberal" Politically and Religiously it is wrong. They both turn into dissent .

Liberal basically means "out with the old and in with the new". Meaing get rid of tradition and family values. In other words many Liberal Catholics in america support the 5 non-negotiables., and protest the church's teachings. Specially on Morals.


liberal

Function: noun

: a person who is liberal: as a : one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways b capitalized : a member or supporter of a liberal political party c : an advocate or adherent of liberalism especially in individual rights

3 obsolete : lacking moral restraint : LICENTIOUS
4 : not literal or strict : LOOSE <a liberal translation>
5 : BROAD-MINDED; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms

Liberals are in fact so open minded that their brains fall out.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Politically and Religiously it is wrong. [/quote]

There is nothing wrong with political liberalism, so long as it is conformed to the moral faith of the Church. Democracy, of its very nature, is a liberal political system.

Politics, whether liberal or conservative, can both be perverted beyond the moral faith of the Church. This is akin to Communism and Capitalism; both opposite ends of the political spectrum, but both of which can be disastrous.

[prose]

Okay, but do you think some "liberal" catholics are misnamed then?

By that I mean do you think they are not liberal per se, but consider themselves that due to lack of any better word?

[Guest Eremite]

[quote name='prose' date='Jul 31 2005, 07:35 PM']Okay, but do you think some "liberal" catholics are misnamed then?

By that I mean do you think they are not liberal per se, but consider themselves that due to lack of any better word?
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[/quote]

I don't use the word "liberal", so I can't say whether they are or they aren't. Either they are orthodox or heterodox.

Catholics can disagree over things like how to handle tax cuts. Politically liberal Catholics have one idea, politically conservative Catholics have another idea. So long as they correctly hold the moral and doctrinal faith of the Church, they are free to advance their opinions in the civil realm.

[philothea]

[quote name='prose' date='Jul 31 2005, 07:35 PM']Okay, but do you think some "liberal" catholics are misnamed then?

By that I mean do you think they are not liberal per se, but consider themselves that due to lack of any better word?
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Well [i]obviously[/i] wanting reform or change in the Church does not always equate with being a bad Catholic, so if liberal means heterodox, then it's not always a fair term.

In any case, it's always best to see people in the most charitable light possible. I liked your post.

[ReinnieR]

well what does it really mean to be "liberal"???

i know MC Just have just pointed this out.

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jul 31 2005, 07:27 PM']liberal

Function: noun

: a person who is liberal: as a : one who is open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways b capitalized : a member or supporter of a liberal political party c : an advocate or adherent of liberalism especially in individual rights

3 obsolete : lacking moral restraint : LICENTIOUS
4 : not literal or strict : LOOSE <a liberal translation>
5 : BROAD-MINDED; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
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[/quote]


"open-minded or not strict in the observance of orthodox, traditional, or established forms or ways b capitalized"

IMO "liberals" have abused their freedom way too much

what are the "liberal" views that we face today?

well for one

"liberals" would like to take out the words UNDER GOD in our pledge of allegiance.

two

"liberals" would also like to take out the 10 commandments out of our courthouses.

these are just a few examples.

to me if you say you're a "liberal" Catholic. IMO that's an oxymoron

you can't call yourself Catholic and be ProChoice

I am in the United States Air Force

I AM AN AIRMAN

and the Airman's Creed States


[quote]I AM AN AIRMAN A newly planted seed growing each day, exceeding all expectaions
I AM AN AIRMAN One of the many, the strong, and the proud
I AM AN AIRMAN Backbone of the Air Force, focused on quality, integrity and excellence
I AM AN AIRMAN Eager to learn the skills for tomorrow's needs
I AM AN AIRMAN Continuosly striving to become more than i thought i could and encouraging my fellow airmen to do the same
I AM AN AIRMAN Going above and beyond what is expected by those appointed over me
I AM AN AIRMAN A follower, transforming into a future leader
I AM AN AIRMAN A part of the hope and promise of freedom, willing to die so that freedom may live.
I AM AN AIRMAN!!!!![/quote]

so I AM AN AIRMAN A part of the hope and promise of freedom, willing to die so that freedom may live.

so basically I am willing to die so that freedom may live

and "liberals" can express their freedom by the examples i have shown above


and it makes me question

what am I really fighting for??

Edited August 1, 2005 by ReinnieR

[Dudette]

bump, need more opinions/views here people!

[Ash Wednesday]

I personally find the terms "liberal/progressive" and "conservative" to be most correct used within the umbrella term of orthodox -- that is, faithful to the magesterium.

Anything that is otherwise, I consider "heterodox."

Thus my ratzenfreude title

But in reality, especially influenced by terms in the media, most people equate "liberal" with someone completely heterodox (pro-choice, pro-gay marriage, women priests, on the rubber or the pill) and "conservative" with someone faithful (observant Catholic that agrees with those teachings of the Church)

And then there are the schismatic ones that are called "more Catholic than the pope."

Within the umbrella of Orthodoxy I've noticed a diversity of views of Catholics -- I see it on phatmass.

I could meet a youth minister who likes the Lifeteen Mass, and is opposed to the war in Iraq and the death penalty -- or I could meet a college student discerning the priesthood who prefers the Latin Mass and believes the death penalty is perfectly fine and necessary and supports the war in Iraq. And yet they both have active spiritual lives, and believe and assent to all of the "hot button" issues of the Church where her teachings are clear -- I would consider both to be faithful Catholics.

[jmjtina]

I"m reading "Liberalism is a sin" by Fr. Felix Darda Y Salvany.

I think the title says it all.

[jmjtina]

and when a Catholic labels themselves a liberal, I don't think of politics.

I think of where they stand on issues of the faith.

[Socrates]

One is ultimately either orthodox or heretodox (faithful to the Church or not). The world tries to frame these issues within the Church in political terms ("liberal," conservative," "right-wing," etc.) which clouds the central issue of whether one is truly Catholic or not. Instead, this presents the different "views" on dogma and morals as merely differing (and equally valid) political factions.

The truth is, one is either a faithful Catholic, or he is not.

Edited August 6, 2005 by Socrates

[MC Just]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Aug 5 2005, 01:44 AM']I"m reading "Liberalism is a sin" by Fr. Felix Darda Y Salvany.

I think the title says it all.
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I just got done reading that book. I love it. It just makes so much sense.

[ReinnieR]

[quote name='jmjtina' date='Aug 5 2005, 01:44 AM']I"m reading "Liberalism is a sin" by Fr. Felix Darda Y Salvany.

I think the title says it all.
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[/quote]
i need to cop this book